Religion II

[traynor]

"Several modern Bible-commentators view the "war in heaven" in Revelation 12:7–13 as an eschatological vision of the end of time or as a reference to spiritual warfare within the church, rather than (as in Milton's Paradise Lost) "the story of the origin of Satan/Lucifer as an angel who rebelled against God in primeval times."[3][4][5][6] Some commentators have seen the war in heaven as "not literal" but symbolic of events on earth" (citation above).

So people decide that is way too complex for the common folk to grasp, and decide to change the meaning to mindless metaphor (created by their own conceptually impoverished and limited cognitive abilities). How tacky!

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by traynor

"In Milton's Paradise Lost (1674), the angel Lucifer leads a rebellion against God before the Fall of Man. A third of the angels, including pagan gods such as Moloch and Belial, are hurled from Heaven."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven

That came from another book.

Yes, that is why satan is already in the Garden of Eden. However, the Watchers, were attracted by the daughters of men, as man populated the earth. Enoch is a direct descendant of Adam's line. So it is conceivable two rebellions occurred at separate times. It is unclear.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Light

WOW.

Jesus couldn't have made it more clear and direct with the statement: "its not here or there its within you". Simple. What is there to misunderstand?

Sorry Light but I can't find anywhere on the internet where Jesus
said: "its not here or there its within you".

It's stated on certain sites, but not attributed to Jesus saying it like that.

Where in the Holy Bible is it said exactly as you have reported above?

[traynor]

"The Book of Revelation describes a war in heaven between angels led by the Archangel Michael against those led by "the dragon"—identified as "the devil and Satan"—who are defeated and thrown down to the earth.
Revelation's war in heaven is related to the idea of fallen angels, and possible parallels have been proposed in the Hebrew Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in...2:7.E2.80.9313

Has anyone read this in the original? Who speaks/writes/understands English in sufficient detail to explain what it actually says (rather than what some petty theologian wants to believe it means)?

Specifically, the origin of the "dragon" and the woman?

[traynor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Yes, that is why satan is already in the Garden of Eden. However, the Watchers, were attracted by the daughters of men, as man populated the earth. Enoch is a direct descendant of Adam's line. So it is conceivable two rebellions occurred at separate times. It is unclear.

Please define your use of the term "watchers."

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by traynor

Please define your use of the term "watchers."

The name, according to Enoch, of the angelic beings who were suppose to watch over mankind. Instead of doing their duty to watch over mankind, they came down onto the earth, due to their lust for the daughters of man and inserted their genetic code into humanity, through the offspring of the watchers and human woman.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Don't get testy now. You are still a very smart guy...you are just no "Rodney Dangerfield"...that's all.

I said that very matter of factly. Unfortunately, inflection is the one thing the internet doesn't do well!!

No offense was taken.

Of course, the important point in that post was that translation by the best of dual language speakers is not an easy thing.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

The name, according to Enoch, of the angelic beings who were suppose to watch over mankind. Instead of doing their duty to watch over mankind, they came down onto the earth, due to their lust for the daughters of man and inserted their genetic code into humanity, through the offspring of the watchers and human woman.

Thanks. All I can say at the moment is that it is a mess. It was made a mess way back, and endless muddling around by people who presume to "understand" has accomplished little but make the mess even more muddled. A pity.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

I said that very matter of factly. Unfortunately, inflection is the one thing the internet doesn't do well!!

No offense was taken.

Of course, the important point in that post was that translation by the best of dual language speakers is not an easy thing.

Yes...translation can be a risky business. But when Jesus's words were translated to "The kingdom of God is AMONG you"...this wasn't an "honest mistake" which could be attributed to the differing styles of the "best" translators. It was an outright DISTORTION...meant to serve the purposes of those to whom Jesus's original comment has deemed "harmful".

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...translation can be a risky business. But when Jesus's words were translated to "The kingdom of God is AMONG you"...this wasn't an "honest mistake" which could be attributed to the differing styles of the "best" translators. It was an outright DISTORTION...meant to serve the purposes of those to whom Jesus's original comment has deemed "harmful".

Yes, that was the other important point about translation. The translator can decide what the author meant in context, and yes, the translator can put his own spin on it, whether innocently or deviously.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...translation can be a risky business. But when Jesus's words were translated to "The kingdom of God is AMONG you"...this wasn't an "honest mistake" which could be attributed to the differing styles of the "best" translators. It was an outright DISTORTION...meant to serve the purposes of those to whom Jesus's original comment has deemed "harmful".

Prove your assertion and explain to us how your preferred translation doesn't contradict NT biblical theology.

As stated previously, the more modern translations give the alternate reading to give bible students the choice between the two options. I choose the more modern rendering for about the 20 or so theological reasons that have been provided over the last few years, mainly by yours truly but not exclusively.

Hopefully, later on today I will address an important question (which is an honest one, as opposed to most on this thread) as to why Jesus answered the Pharisees how he did in the Luke 17 passage. Why didn't He come straight out and tell the Pharisees that the King is among them? I believe that is a fair question, and I also believe there are biblical answers to it. And the megabytes of irony is that a couple them are rooted in the OT. And we must not forget that Jesus was born under the Law and he came to fulfill all that was written about him in the OT.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Sorry Light but I can't find anywhere on the internet where Jesus
said: "its not here or there its within you".

It's stated on certain sites, but not attributed to Jesus saying it like that.

Where in the Holy Bible is it said exactly as you have reported above?

And, yet, another example of Light's infamous equivocal practices. If you can't win the argument honestly, who can honestly say that that deceitful tactic is all that bad?

[Show Me the Wire]

Referring to human beings Scripture attests we are gods, being offspring of God.

I say, “You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you psalm 82:6
34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[a] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— John 10:34-35

28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,

‘For we too are his offspring.’
29 Since we are God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals.
Acts 17:28-29

[Jess Hawsen Arown]

Just because all organized religions are con games to control the people who fear the unknown, that does not mean that there aren't beings beyond our comprehension that created the universe.

Just remember, there is absolutely nothing anyone can say that will alter the beliefs of anyone who posts here. No scientific evidence can override faith, and no faith in something for which there is no proof will ever convince a free thinker to alter their opinion.

I'll be back to this thread in another six months. Carry on.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...translation can be a risky business. But when Jesus's words were translated to "The kingdom of God is AMONG you"...this wasn't an "honest mistake" which could be attributed to the differing styles of the "best" translators. It was an outright DISTORTION...meant to serve the purposes of those to whom Jesus's original comment has deemed "harmful".

Interesting opinion. Why do you believe it was a purposeful malicious interpretation, especially with your Greek Orthodox background? The Orthodox teach theosis, the partaking of man in the Divine nature?

Also, Scripture clearly states in John 14, 23 Jesus answered him, “Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. and,

John 17:20-21, 20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us,[a] so that the world may believe that you have sent me.


If God is in us and we are in God the Kingdom of Heaven is in us, when we do the will of God.

I don't understand why there would be some nefarious plot to misinterpret the Kingdom of God is among you, in light the above-mentioned Scripture and the teaching man will partake of the Divine Nature.