Religion II

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

It is, of course, the delusion that they got the deer by averaging that is funny. They are government statisticians from Washington after all. Tell the joke to two people each way. One punch line, "We got him, we got him." The other punch line, "if you average the two shots, we got him." Whichever one gets the big laugh, I say you tell the joke that way if you ever decide to tell it again. Of course, I've never told the joke with the latter punch line, but I'll go with my comedy instinct.

Yes...they are government statisticians. But your punchline only works if the audience instinctively agrees that "averaging" is all that these "government statisticians" do...and that's unlikely to happen. This "averaging" concept won't be in the forefront of your audience's mind when your punchline comes...and the joke will fall flat.

No...you don't say "If we average the two shots, we got him!". That would be ridiculous. You say..."On average...we GOT him!". And you'll get the much bigger laugh...IMO.

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...they are government statisticians. But your punchline only works if the audience instinctively agrees that "averaging" is all that these "government statisticians" do...and that's unlikely to happen. This "averaging" concept won't be in the forefront of your audience's mind when your punchline comes...and the joke will fall flat.

No...you don't say "If we average the two shots, we got him!". That would be ridiculous. You say..."On average...we GOT him!". And you'll get the much bigger laugh...IMO.

I don't have a copyright on the joke. If you decide to tell it, tell it your way.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

I don't have a copyright on the joke. If you decide to tell it, tell it your way.

When it comes to humor do it your way.

Agreement is elusive, is it not? We can't agree on how to tell a joke For the record I agree with your version. Adding to much detail to the joke has a negative impact. The more you have to explain a joke, the less humorous the joke becomes.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

I don't have a copyright on the joke. If you decide to tell it, tell it your way.

Don't get testy now. You are still a very smart guy...you are just no "Rodney Dangerfield"...that's all.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Are you saying if I perceive a bowling bowl is food, that will be reality? Don't think so, it may be may perception by it ain't reality.


Not a perception--an opinion. All it takes is one bite to dismiss that opinion, regardless of how it is otherwise (visually, whatever) perceived. Consider the perceptions induced by post-hypnotic suggestions (or religious hysteria). They are "real" to the subject, who "perceives" them to be real and will staunchly defend them as such. That "realness" is internal, subjective, and limited to the individual. Subjective reality, as opposed to objective, external, mostly-agreed-on, "consensus" reality. Which, in turn, others may well and correctly label as "just another illusion, regardless of how many accept it as being real."

Facts are good, but not enough to make a decision about reality. If I tell you there is a puddle of water on the ground and your car, which is parked outside has drops of water on it, is that enough proof to factually know it rained?

The only facts are that you say there is a puddle of water on the ground, and my car has drops of water on it. The rest is conjecture, not fact.

So you know, I am not answering you to bust your b*lls. You bring up an interesting topic.

Thank you.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Contradiction. In the above you say Christ is the Ruler of his Kingdom and IS the Kingdom. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You demolished your own interpretation.

No, Jesus made a play on words. He spoke obscurely for the same reason he taught in parables. By saying the kingdom was in their midst, he was really saying the King or the Ruler of the Kingdom was in their midst. The entire context of the long passage I quoted yesterday has absolutely nothing to do with an invisible, internal kingdom. Jesus spoke to both the Pharisees and then his disciples about the physical, external kingdom.

In fact, the obscure language to the Pharisees in Lk 17:21 differs sharply to the clear language he used with his disciples when he turned to speak to them. He told them that they "would long to see one of the days of the Son of Man...". They would long for his physical presence.

Jesus spoke in a very similar way at the beginning of his ministry. He made another play on words when he said:

Matt 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
NASB

What was "at hand" or very close by was Jesus Himself! Again, he was referring to his physical presence.

He even told his disciples a little later in his ministry to use the same play on words when they were sent out to preach the gospel (Mat 10:7).

Also, there is another huge problem with your interpretation other than the chronological one -- that is to say, that Jesus spoke to Pharisees in the present tense in 17:21, yet the Holy Spirit wouldn't be given until a future date. If Jesus was teaching about an invisible, internal kingdom, he should have used a future tense verb since he taught in other places that the Holy Spirit's ministry to God's chosen people would not begin until after His ascension. This other problem is just as insurmountable for your interpretation. Again, Paul wrote:

Rom 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
NASB

There is a three-fold problem with your interpretation. You say the Pharisees had the kingdom within in them, which clearly means they must have had the indwelling Holy Spirit in them, if this is true. Yet, these Pharisees hated God's Son. They were envious of him. They were jealous of him. They feared losing their power to Him. And they wanted to murder them. How could they harbor all these utterly evil desires towards God's only begotten Son and at the same time experience the righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit? Evil desires and these attributes of the Holy Spirit are diametrically opposed. It's not possible for someone to experience these attributes within their soul, and at the same time also harbor hatred and envy and jealousy for Christ. Talk about a contradiction! And even these qualities or the Holy Spirit are borne out of the love of God, which Jesus told the Pharisees on another occasion they did not have within them (Jn 5:42)!

In short, there are far too many problems with your interpretation -- problems in the immediate context of the passage itself and problems in the larger context of scripture. You truly are trying to drive a round peg into square hole and it won't work. You're trying to force your agenda -- your presuppositions -- upon this Luke 21 passage, and it just cannot work. God's truth and your lie is like oil and water! As it is written:

"Let God be found true and every man be found a liar!" (Rom 3:4)

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Don't get testy now. You are still a very smart guy...you are just no "Rodney Dangerfield"...that's all.

You tell him Gus...!
I never get any respect...

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

It certainly is not off the wall. Just look at all the different translations for the "kingdom of heaven is within you" portion. Some write "within you." Some write "in your midst." Some write something a little different. How are you to know what it is actually saying? You don't. So you choose to BELIEVE whichever one fits your thinking. Good luck with that.

More insane ego gibberish emanating from your abused keyboard. Spare me.

I explained how one can know. Learn to read. Principles of Hermeneutics give honest interpreters checks and balances. And if it weren't for the different renderings of LK 17:21 by different teams of language scholars over many centuries, we'd be stuck with one fallible person's opinion of his translation. This is precisely why the scripture is right when it says it's wise to seek many counselors.

If you were accused of a serious crime and had to stand trial, I suppose you would rather stand before a juror of one rather than 6 or 12? You'd put more faith in the opinion of one juror rather than rely on an unanimous decision of multiple jurors? You have gone off the deep, dark end, buddy. Seek help, quickly, before it's too late. You don't need to spared. You need to be saved!

And by the way, you have chosen to believe a Jewish rabbi schooled in the original Hebrew, who you do not know personally, because his interpretations fit your thinking. Quit projecting your duplicity onto me.

Mr. Naked Emperor...you still have no list of OT passages that are misinterpetations? (Rhetorical question. Of course you don't). The head on your shoulders only shoots blanks. (I get that.) I hope your other head fares better in that department.

[ReplayRandall]

Let me make this crystal CLEAR, because of the following passage, the Kingdom of God was FULLY present: Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Therefore, when Jesus gave power to HIS disciples, it came FULLY from God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as the TRIUNE GOD was fully present. HIS disciples had the Kingdom of God within them to then perform miracles, casting out demons and healing the sick......

[VigorsTheGrey]

The fable of the resurrection of Jesus has a very unsatisfactory ending...ok , he is surrounded by his disciples and others and then he starts to achieve lift off and starts floating up with into the sky, right...100 feet up 1000 feet up, and he appears to be a little dot at 2000 feet up...up, up and away, like superman....now he is at 10,000 feet and the oxygen is getting a little thin, but he goes higher and higher.... THEN WHAT...? Does he just float off into space, can he still breathe without air...? Or does the chair that is waiting for him at the right hand of god just kind of pull him in that general direction...?

Like I say...a very unsatisfactory ending...it kind of just leaves everyone guessing....Where did he go and how did he get there...?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Mr. Naked Emperor...you still have no list of OT passages that are misinterpetations? (Rhetorical question. Of course you don't). The head on your shoulders only shoots blanks. (I get that.) I hope your other head fares better in that department.

Every single passage in the Tanach that you think refers to the Trinity in some weird way is a SERIOUS MISINTERPRETATION by you and everyone who thinks like you.

Case closed.

And keep slamming that round peg into the square hole, hoping some day all will see it as a round peg in a round hole. They have places for people like you, you know.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

The fable of the resurrection of Jesus has a very unsatisfactory ending...ok , he is surrounded by his disciples and others and then he starts to achieve lift off and starts floating up with into the sky, right...100 feet up 1000 feet up, and he appears to be a little dot at 2000 feet up...up, up and away, like superman....now he is at 10,000 feet and the oxygen is getting a little thin, but he goes higher and higher.... THEN WHAT THEN....? Does he just float off into space, can he still breathe without air...? Or does the chair that is waiting for him at the right hand of god just kind of pull him in that general direction...?

Like I say...a very unsatisfactory ending...it kind of just leaves everyone guessing....Where did he go and how did he get there...?

Always the dick in here, you are.

Keep mocking.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Let me make this crystal CLEAR, because of the following passage, the Kingdom of God was FULLY present: Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Therefore, when Jesus gave power to HIS disciples, it came FULLY from God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as the TRIUNE GOD was fully present. HIS disciples had the Kingdom of God within them to then perform miracles, casting out demons and healing the sick......

Chapter and verse, please on your claim in the last paragraph. If the disciples had the Holy Spirit in them during Christ's ministry, how could Christ have promised to send The Helper after his departure?

The power to perform miracles was indeed granted by God to the disciples but that is a far cry from saying that the Holy Spirit lived within them during Christ's ministry.

Moreover, there was never a moment in Christ's life that he wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 3:22 is simply recording the anointing of God upon Christ. This anointing was the official inauguration of Christ's 3-1/2-year ministry. The reason the Father was "well pleased" with his Son was precisely because Jesus always submitted to and followed the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is how he remained sinless. He was sinless from birth to ministry and from ministry to death and from resurrection even until now.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Every single passage in the Tanach that you think refers to the Trinity in some weird way is a SERIOUS MISINTERPRETATION by you and everyone who thinks like you.

Case closed.

And keep slamming that round peg into the square hole, hoping some day all will see it as a round peg in a round hole. They have places for people like you, you know.

Oh...okay...I get it. It is so because you say it is so. Has anyone ever told you excel at circular reasoning?

Keep shooting those noisy blanks...Maybe one day, it'll make you so tone deaf, you won't be able to hear you own thinking, and the world would be a better place for it.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Every single passage in the Tanach that you think refers to the Trinity in some weird way is a SERIOUS MISINTERPRETATION by you and everyone who thinks like you.

Case closed.

And keep slamming that round peg into the square hole, hoping some day all will see it as a round peg in a round hole. They have places for people like you, you know.

The same stubborn streak that exists in Boxcar, is the same stubbornness that exists in Jews who don't believe that Yeshua was, indeed, the Messiah......We ALL won't ever get anywhere until THIS is resolved.