Religion III

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yeah, about as "nice" as you ducking out the conversation about the earth being "fixed and immovable". I'm still waiting for the passage to which you alluded.

You've kept me waiting for over a year and a half for your computer programmer to update your handicapping software...and now you are getting upset because I kept you waiting for a week and a half for a bible passage? Here it is:

Psalm 104:5 (NIV):

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

[Corey]

God is always asking us, do you love me ? If you answer yes, then God’s next question may be, then why don’t you spend more time with me ? after all we all spend the most amount of time every day doing what we love or spending it with the ones we love. There is no better way to spend time with God them to read the Gospels, even just one passage a day and then ponder and listen to what God is saying to us. As far as dwelling on the literal interpretations of this or
that, to me it resembles a clay pot looking up at his creator the potter and saying, I think your doing it wrong.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You've kept me waiting for over a year and a half for your computer programmer to update your handicapping software...and now you are getting upset because I kept you waiting for a week and a half for a bible passage? Here it is:

Psalm 104:5 (NIV):

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

And your specific problem with this passage is what?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And your specific problem with this passage is what?

My specific problem with this passage is that it seems to have been created by an ignorant man...and not by an omniscient "God". And this leaves me wondering if ANYTHING in the bible could be attributed to an
"omniscient God".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Did he ever claim they weren't fiction? Did he ever claim they are Truth?

There are plenty of people who to this day believe he's still alive. He'd be over 150 years old. The present owners of 221B Baker Street have a full time employee whose sole job is to answer Sherlock Holmes mail. Ergo, no claim is required. Merely a bunch of gullible people.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Sure. Plenty of times during my Christian life. And "what does that even mean"? It means that God has entered into a personal, covenant relationship with me whereby I can often sense his presence and his working in my life.

It means you have an imaginary friend, just like a lot of other children.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Christians are still being persecuted today in various parts of the world.

People are being persecuted today, all kinds of people in all parts of the world. In that regard Christians are not special.

"Hey, I'm being persecuted, therefore my religion is the one true religion," is a non-sequitur. It's also a Monty Python skit.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Only God's infallible, inspired Word is Truth -- not catechisms or creeds or confessions of faith. I think scripture is pretty clear on that.

Thy Word is Truth (Jn 17:17b). If you have other scriptures that say differently, feel free to share.

Like any good chess player, you open with a book move, no pun intended. In the first chapter of Not By Scripture Alone, comes the paragraph,

#1: The "Word of God Fallacy
"It never fails. In conversations with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists about biblical authority, this argument always comes up. The Protestant mistakenly assumes that every time the phrase "Word of God" appears in Scripture, it refers to the Bible"...

Is not Christ "the Word"? Is not apostolic preaching... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Lk10.16 ...about hearing "the Word"? And their successors? ... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Mt28.19

Not gonna trade verses with you. You can debate former Calvinists now Catholic regarding sola scriptura...https://www.calledtocommunion.com/?s=sola+scriptura

I've been down this road before with the two serious, faithful Reformed individuals weighing embryonic stem cell research...(the link to the late Dr. Young's faithful study and prayer is broken)... http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ostcount=18722

Assuming Christ's death at roughly the year 29, and 1 Thes acknowledged as the first NT writing, roughly the year 51, how did the Gospel survive for twenty ++ years?

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

My specific problem with this passage is that it seems to have been created by an ignorant man...and not by an omniscient "God". And this leaves me wondering if ANYTHING in the bible could be attributed to an
"omniscient God".

If it helps, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox at least, do not view Inspiration as God overpowering the human nature of the author(s), who is allowed to express within his own capacity and knowledge, i.e., not merely a stenographer. God is understood as the first author, the human writer as a secondary author with his own contribution in the context of his cosmology, etc.

A book is accepted in the canon for its theology, not its science. E.g, Gen 1, Psalm 104, etc., express monotheism in creating vs. the neighbors of Israel and their creation myths describing polytheism, cosmic battles over creation, etc.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Corey

God is always asking us, do you love me ? If you answer yes, then God’s next question may be, then why don’t you spend more time with me ? after all we all spend the most amount of time every day doing what we love or spending it with the ones we love. There is no better way to spend time with God them to read the Gospels, even just one passage a day and then ponder and listen to what God is saying to us. As far as dwelling on the literal interpretations of this or
that, to me it resembles a clay pot looking up at his creator the potter and saying, I think your doing it wrong.

It seems to me that God needs a worthwhile hobby.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Like any good chess player, you open with a book move, no pun intended. In the first chapter of Not By Scripture Alone, comes the paragraph,

#1: The "Word of God Fallacy
"It never fails. In conversations with Evangelicals and Fundamentalists about biblical authority, this argument always comes up. The Protestant mistakenly assumes that every time the phrase "Word of God" appears in Scripture, it refers to the Bible"...

Is not Christ "the Word"? Is not apostolic preaching... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Lk10.16 ...about hearing "the Word"? And their successors? ... https://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Mt28.19

Not gonna trade verses with you. You can debate former Calvinists now Catholic regarding sola scriptura...https://www.calledtocommunion.com/?s=sola+scriptura

I've been down this road before with the two serious, faithful Reformed individuals weighing embryonic stem cell research...(the link to the late Dr. Young's faithful study and prayer is broken)... http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...ostcount=18722

Assuming Christ's death at roughly the year 29, and 1 Thes acknowledged as the first NT writing, roughly the year 51, how did the Gospel survive for twenty ++ years?

It is not a mistaken belief. Not if you believe the scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit (cf. 2Tim 3:16). It appears that you interpret Lk 10:16 quite loosely. For example, anyone can say he's a disciple of Christ or a believer and speak whatever he wants and you equate that with the inspired Word? Or should we understand it in more restrictive sense to be saying that those truly faithful to Christ will only teach and preach what is consistent with the Word of God?

And, yes, Christ is the Living Word; for the Father spoke through him in these last days (Heb 1:2), plus all authority has been given to Jesus (Mat 28:18); plus the Spirit only speaks what he hears (Jn 16:12). And since the Spirit is sent by the Son from the Father (Jn 15:26), then it is understood he only speaks what he hears from the Son. Hence, Christ is the Living Word. Did not Jesus himself say, that "heaven and earth will pass away, by my words will never pass away" (Mk 13:31)?

All scripture has survived these centuries because God sovereignly preserves his Word. Is anything too difficult for God?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

If it helps, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox at least, do not view Inspiration as God overpowering the human nature of the author(s), who is allowed to express within his own capacity and knowledge, i.e., not merely a stenographer. God is understood as the first author, the human writer as a secondary author with his own contribution in the context of his cosmology, etc.

A book is accepted in the canon for its theology, not its science. E.g, Gen 1, Psalm 104, etc., express monotheism in creating vs. the neighbors of Israel and their creation myths describing polytheism, cosmic battles over creation, etc.

Hah! And herein is the crux of the problem. There is no secondary author. No such animal. All scripture is God-breathed; it's not inspired by God and its human writers. While it is true that the writers were allowed to express themselves as individuals, they provided the sense of scripture in their words from God's literal words. In fact, don't we have today two basic kinds of translations: The Formal and Dynamic, the formal being a more literal word-for-word, while the latter being a more fluid, sense-oriented translation. This is why I so often refer to these two types of translations in my own personal studies -- for example, the NASB or ESV for a more literal understanding and the NIV to try to capture the sense.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

If it helps, Catholic and Eastern Orthodox at least, do not view Inspiration as God overpowering the human nature of the author(s), who is allowed to express within his own capacity and knowledge, i.e., not merely a stenographer. God is understood as the first author, the human writer as a secondary author with his own contribution in the context of his cosmology, etc.

A book is accepted in the canon for its theology, not its science. E.g, Gen 1, Psalm 104, etc., express monotheism in creating vs. the neighbors of Israel and their creation myths describing polytheism, cosmic battles over creation, etc.

This may indeed be the understanding of the gullible...but I remain unconvinced. To me it seems that the "human writer" has let his imagination run wild. Like that bit written by Isaiah where God supposedly states that all good things will come to Israel...peace and splendor will shower the Israeli land...and all the world's nations will either bow down to Israel, or they will perish. Wait...let me do a google search on that passage just in case Boxcar later asks me to. Ahh...here it is:

https://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/B...le/ISA+60.html

All good things will come to Israel, and God says he will do this "swiftly"...and yet...Israel hasn't known a day of "peace" ever since.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

This may indeed be the understanding of the gullible...but I remain unconvinced. To me it seems that the "human writer" has let his imagination run wild. Like that bit written by Isaiah where God supposedly states that all good things will come to Israel...peace and splendor will shower the Israeli land...and all the world's nations will either bow down to Israel, or they will perish. Wait...let me do a google search on that passage just in case Boxcar later asks me to. Ahh...here it is:

https://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/B...le/ISA+60.html

All good things will come to Israel, and God says he will do this "swiftly"...and yet...Israel hasn't known a day of "peace" ever since.

That is a very interesting prophecy and I believe I have a good biblical explanation of it. But I will defer to Doc to see what he has to say.

[porchy44]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

"And that is no small problem in the RCC. It demonstrates their low view of
my interpretation of scripture".

Exactly.

My Minister brother has a Baptist moment when he believes Jesus turned water into juice NOT wine. he masks his personal biases as "revealed by the Holy Spirit".

Fundamentalists believe anyone asking for a proper interpretation will receive one from God—and that is exactly how most Fundamentalists understand the assistance of the Holy Spirit to work.

One thing I have learned with conversations with my brother is he would rather be wrong than be in agreement with Catholic teaching.

How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hah! And herein is the crux of the problem. There is no secondary author. No such animal. All scripture is God-breathed; it's not inspired by God and its human writers. While it is true that the writers were allowed to express themselves as individuals, they provided the sense of scripture in their words from God's literal words. In fact, don't we have today two basic kinds of translations: The Formal and Dynamic, the formal being a more literal word-for-word, while the latter being a more fluid, sense-oriented translation. This is why I so often refer to these two types of translations in my own personal studies -- for example, the NASB or ESV for a more literal understanding and the NIV to try to capture the sense.

"While it is true that the writers were allowed to express themselves as individuals, they provided the sense of scripture in their words from God's literal words". Making them secondary authors in the sense of causation. The author of Genesis conveys theological truths under inspiration, while producing the text within his prehistoric cosmology. I don't think we differ here.

"The Formal and Dynamic, the formal being a more literal word-for-word, while the latter being a more fluid, sense-oriented translation". Or the literal and the spiritual sense. The literal sense need not be "word-for-word". Allegory may have been the authors intention (Jonah?, Song of Songs). The spiritual senses...typological, moral, anagogical (our destiny). They have been linked to literal = natural man, typological = man under the Law, moral = man under grace, anagogical = man in glory.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

That is a very interesting prophecy and I believe I have a good biblical explanation of it. But I will defer to Doc to see what he has to say.

Just in case you are thinking of telling me that this "prophecy" will materialize some time in the future...kindly note that line #6 tells the Israelis that "Herds of camels will cover your land". And the "herds of camels" are no longer the symbol of prosperity that they once were. Of course...it might be that these herds of camels are due for a comeback.