How would you rank them? - Page 3 - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

cj · 02-02-2018, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnsy

I posted something similar two BC's ago. All of them in there would of been a real "Classic." (AP, Chrome, Arrogate) AP, if he improved, could of been the best horse for decades.....and it was all left on the table. That's why i would put Chrome ahead, i agree. Its a detriment when horses like that retire and Chrome stuck it out. That's real sportsmanship.

One was worth a fortune at stud, the other was not. I wouldn't call that sportsmanship.

reckless · 02-02-2018, 04:32 PM

Arrogate
Gun Runner
California Chrome
American Pharoah

Arrogate legitimately ran three of the most remarkable races in the history of the sport. He easily handled Gun Runner early, but also lost by many in their last meeting, of course. Arrogate also ran down the very sharp California Chrome deep in the stretch when CC had an open lead in the BC Classic and later easily trounced him again in the Pegasus.

Can't praise Gun Runner enough. Dominated the handicap division. Love the horse. Ran well in the early 3yo year, improved in the fall and ran even better at four. Never missed a beat nor basically ducked a horse throughout his career.

California Chrome was dominant in his 3 and 4 yo seasons running much faster than some of the public speed figures suggested, imo. I believe he was very underated as a runner but of course, the over the top public love fest for CC left him with very few true die hard fans.

American Pharoah faced a weak bunch of 3-year-olds and after the Derby it seemed to me the rest of the outfits conceded the TC to him. Best of a poor lot.

I'll go to my grave believing Liam's Map would have pissed all over American Pharoah if Todd Pletcher ran him the BC Classic as he should have. Not that anyone cares.

Denny · 02-02-2018, 04:37 PM

So why didn't Pletcher run Liam in the Classic?
Why didn't Shug McGaughey run Honor Code?

Because they knew.

Pharaoh would have trounced them both.

Tee · 02-02-2018, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny

So why didn't Pletcher run Liam in the Classic?
Why didn't Shug McGaughey run Honor Code?

Because they knew.

Pharaoh would have trounced them both.

Honor Code ran 3rd in the 2015 Breeders Cup Classic.

Denny · 02-02-2018, 07:16 PM

I thought Honor Code went in the Dirt Mile?

If he did go in the Classic, then AP did trounce him. Makes my point.

I don't like that Dirt Mile. Takes away from the Classic field. Sometimes takes away from the Sprint.

But, what's the use. We've been talking about that. Sorry to go off topic.

Tee · 02-02-2018, 08:10 PM

Liam's Map won the dirt mile with relative ease in track record time at odds of 1/2.

Wasn't the easiest of trips either.

My rankings would be
1) Gun Runner
2) Arrogate
3) California Chrome
4) American Pharoah

I like the way reckless put it in his write up, just switch the top two.

SharpCat · 02-03-2018, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reckless

California Chrome was dominant in his 3 and 4 yo seasons running much faster than some of the public speed figures suggested, imo. I believe he was very underated as a runner but of course, the over the top public love fest for CC left him with very few true die hard fans.

I did not realize running twice as a 4yo and running 2nd both times makes you a dominant horse.

SharpCat · 02-03-2018, 04:32 AM

No telling how good American Pharoah would have been as a 4yo but the 3yo version was a pretty dam good.

On pure talent

1-1a Arrogate, American Pharoah
3 Gun Runner
4 California Chrome

NY BRED · 02-03-2018, 08:22 AM

Until a three year old win the Triple Crown AND the Breeders Cup
the champion/best horse on this topic is American Pharoah.

The incredible difficulty in keeping a three year old sound for the
triple crown speaks for itself based on distance and the condensed
time frame facing a three year old.

Thereafter, winning the Breeders Cup stands as a record that
will be diffcult to match, regardless which horses any of these
"competing"horses ever met AP in competition.

Closing Statenmennt: Secretariat, huge heart(literally) faced
and beat Sham(my pick) 3 times, with Sham finishing second.

Were Big Red not born, would Sham have been the Last Triple
Crown winner before AP and considered the best horse ever
in winning the Triple Crown?

thaskalos · 02-03-2018, 08:45 AM

When we are asked to handicap a field of horses...do we just judge them according to their ability when they are "at their best"? Of course not! A horse may be a standout when "at its best"...but its current form may indicate that the horse is no longer capable of delivering its "best effort". These are the two fundamental questions that we ask when handicapping, IMO: 1) How good is a given horse "at its best"?...and 2) Is the horse at its best TODAY?

When I saw this thread...I envisioned the four listed horses lined up against each other in the starting gate, not in their "best form"...but in their RECENT form. In the art/science of handicapping, "recent form" speaks louder than "best form". And, judging by their recent form...Arrogate would trail the other three horses at the wire...IMO.

dilanesp · 02-03-2018, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NY BRED

Until a three year old win the Triple Crown AND the Breeders Cup
the champion/best horse on this topic is American Pharoah.

The incredible difficulty in keeping a three year old sound for the
triple crown speaks for itself based on distance and the condensed
time frame facing a three year old.

Thereafter, winning the Breeders Cup stands as a record that
will be diffcult to match, regardless which horses any of these
"competing"horses ever met AP in competition.

Closing Statenmennt: Secretariat, huge heart(literally) faced
and beat Sham(my pick) 3 times, with Sham finishing second.

Were Big Red not born, would Sham have been the Last Triple
Crown winner before AP and considered the best horse ever
in winning the Triple Crown?

This ia wrong. It is much more difficult to have a long career and win lots of races.

I am not a big fan of Secretariat retiring early either, but there is no comparison between Secretariat, who had a bunch of good races at 2, set a bunch of time records, and beat at least one great field of older horses in the Marlboro, to Pharoah's three races after the TC.

Also, Sham was correctly named. He was a nice 3 year old, but his finishing 3 lengths behind Secretariat in two races has led him to be highly overrated. If you want to talk asbout horses who would have won a TC in other years, Alydar and Easy Goer are the obvious examples.