Moss Interview - Very interesting

[john del riccio]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.

I think if you were to pose that same question globally (ie ALL horses, not just TC trail horses), the numbers would be more staggering than you imagine.

I think the one point Moss made that I don't agree with is that artificial surfaces
are safer, not quite sure about that.

John

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.

But as there are far fewer fillies on that trail, and they all appear negatively impacted in some way, shouldn't that tell us something?

[chickenhead]

Originally Posted by Indulto

But as there are far fewer fillies on that trail, and they all appear negatively impacted in some way, shouldn't that tell us something?

What's the sample size, 4 or 5 horses over the last decade? You can't deduce any difference from that, not with the general attrition rate as high as it is for colts.

Maybe a better takeaway is "really fast young horses get injured, often". Magnificience managed to hurt herself without facing boys.

[jonnielu]

Originally Posted by misscashalot

Just on this one point of yours. In Europe girls successfully race against the boys every day, and without incident.

Well let's all put on a sundress and sachay down the promenade. Europeans aren't the speed freaks that Americans are. I guess that it just isn't possible that this horse fell out from exhaustion and broke both her ankles doing it.

Horses never run beyond their limits, and they don't know that they are racing either, they are just dumb animals, right? Sorry, but there are differences in the sexes, not with people, that would be politically incorrect. But, with horses, there are differences. The differences don't make much difference in Europe, they do in America.

jdl

[jonnielu]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

MOST of the time in North America as well.

Maybe in North America we should find a better way to identify the champions early, and break their spirits so that we can be sure they never over extend themselves.

jdl

[Marshall Bennett]

Appears to be somewhat of a no-win situation for the connections of any high profile filly . If they refuse to race them against the colts they get blasted within the industry and when they do you risk what we have now . I beleive had it been BB that fell instead , the media would have opened fire to the same degree , only using different ammunition in their case .

[Charlie D]

Originally Posted by misscashalot

Just on this one point of yours. In Europe girls successfully race against the boys every day, and without incident.

They certainly do, and when they have the ability, like Ouija Board and Pride did, they kick the boys butts too

[Charlie D]

Can't get Youtube to work, but go watch Makybe Diva do something a boy has not done and some want to deny horses of this ability showing how good they are

[Grits]

Sometimes, I do not agree regarding sex in athletic competition, but in this case, I do agree with jdl on this and as he points out, we're not talking humans here, we are talking about an animal.

As humans, we can force our opinion regarding human competition, we can--and do--demand that choices be made available. A woman can compete and WIN a Formula One Racing event.

Indeed, in Europe females do race against males, but as we all know, 99% of the races run there are on turf. And I would think, we know as well, that turf has more cushion than the freeway that is rolled on Derby Day, and often, other major racing days.

As humans, we think we know what's best for every living thing. And because of our superior intelligence we make those decisions, daily. Now and then, we too, because of that "perceived" superior intelligence, we make mistakes and we end up appearing as . . . . the dumbest clucks on the planet. Trouble is, we're the only ones capable of discussion on the decisions made--all the others can't respond. And doesn't that benefit us greatly!

The observations I wrote today, earlier in this thread, are essentially, the same thing I said in private early Sunday among some friends. I hesitated to post my thoughts here, until today after I visited another forum and read the comments of DanG, someone, many here, have great respect for. After reading his thoughts, I didn't feel badly about my own. I didn't feel I was terribly off base. I still don't.

Originally Posted by jonnielu

Well let's all put on a sundress and sachay down the promenade. Europeans aren't the speed freaks that Americans are. I guess that it just isn't possible that this horse fell out from exhaustion and broke both her ankles doing it.

Horses never run beyond their limits, and they don't know that they are racing either, they are just dumb animals, right? Sorry, but there are differences in the sexes, not with people, that would be politically incorrect. But, with horses, there are differences. The differences don't make much difference in Europe, they do in America.

jdl

[Charlie D]

And I would think, we know as well, that turf has more cushion than the freeway that is rolled on Derby Day, and often, other major racing days

.

During the summer months turf tracks are watered in UK to give what they call "Good safe ground"


However, turf management like that and the cushion of turf did not stop Ouija Board being injured at York, an injury, that some thought would never see her on a racetrack again, that cushion did not stop Horatio Nelson breaking his leg in English Derby, that cushion did not stop Gypsy King breaking his shoulder in Irish Derby and there have been more




Only way you stop the above, the Eight Belles, the Babaro's, the George Washington's is by NOT racing, however, you can try to minimise these injuries by having a decent cushion, by probably breeding from sounder stock, by probably stopping race day medication

[ny0707ny]

Originally Posted by jonnielu

All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

jdl

I mentioned this the day of the race and got slammed for saying a filly should not be in a race with a colt. My main point was not just the fact that she is chasing a colt, but also the longer distance involved in the race doing it. The derby is 1 1/4 miles. Not an easy distance even for most colts to get. She was great. That is the entire point though! A horse like her will try to death to win. She was very competitive. But how in a million years can she beat a horse like BB anyway? The odds were slim to none.

Doesn't anyone think that a longer distance race will put more stress on her than a shorter distance route? This is not rocket science here. Even if the risk goes up only slightly why do it?

[tomcalta]

Can someone please enlighten me, exactly which race day meds is Randy Moss referring to? Amicar and Lasix are for resp problems and virtually have no effect on acting as an analgesic. There have been studies which have shown performance has increased, but this effect was most likely die to decreased water weight and/or attenuated respiratory stress. So what other meds, i guess besides steroids, is Moss referring to? Isn't most of everything else illegal and/or tested for in pre/post out of competition testing?

As for the whip, i don't know if i think it should be completely removed but i do feel that the stewards should be a little more stringent with excessive use. Most jocks and horsemen will agree (i hope) to know that the whip does not do much for making a horse go faster, but is rather a more effective tool for switching leads or better control of the horse.

I have felt the need to defend this sport numerous times since last Saturday, mainly from those that only watch 3 televised races/year... and i'm sure i'm not the only one on this message board that is getting annoyed.

[tomcalta]

PS... Am i the only one that is absolutely sick of people saying that horses breaking their legs in horse racing is "part of the sport?"

Horses breaking down are not part of the sport, or at least not part of the sport that i have worked in. Yes, as in all sports injuries occur, but by no way are horsemen comfortable with injuries or breakdowns and by saying these things are just "part of the sport" it makes me feel like we just shrug our shoulders and say so what... and then we have another target on our backs from PETA.

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by chickenhead

I think whats being missed by pointing to Rags to Riches, Eight Belles, etc, are how many of the colts get injured on the triple crown trail, and/or are never the same again (or never seem the same again). It's not a small number.

On a similar note, the win rate for KD fillies is something like 7% ... not all that much different from the colts, I think.

[russowen77]

Originally Posted by tomcalta

Can someone please enlighten me, exactly which race day meds is Randy Moss referring to? Amicar and Lasix are for resp problems and virtually have no effect on acting as an analgesic. There have been studies which have shown performance has increased, but this effect was most likely die to decreased water weight and/or attenuated respiratory stress. So what other meds, i guess besides steroids, is Moss referring to? Isn't most of everything else illegal and/or tested for in pre/post out of competition testing?

As for the whip, i don't know if i think it should be completely removed but i do feel that the stewards should be a little more stringent with excessive use. Most jocks and horsemen will agree (i hope) to know that the whip does not do much for making a horse go faster, but is rather a more effective tool for switching leads or better control of the horse.

I have felt the need to defend this sport numerous times since last Saturday, mainly from those that only watch 3 televised races/year... and i'm sure i'm not the only one on this message board that is getting annoyed.

He is primarily talking about pain killers.

One problem is that the crowd needs to be educated about the whip. There are many people who get really mad and think the fix is on or whatever if the jock is not whipping the horse. Maybe it is just in OP but I highly doubt it. Change is coming hopefully. The AR demgaz sports editor is calling for the whip elimination with some explanation.