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Old 03-19-2018, 10:31 AM   #5821
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Once again....


http://cds.cern.ch/record/518511/files/0107054.pdf

It is shown that quantum mechanics can be regarded as what one
might call a ”fuzzy” mechanics whose underlying logic is the
fuzzy one,in contradistinction to the classical ”crisp” logic
. There
fore classical mechanics can be viewed as a crisp limit of a ”fuzzy” quantum mechanics.
And once again, Wizzard of Pop Science:

This idea is popularised by the so-called laymen books by Kaku and co. This is a nonsense. We deal with probability amplitudes- there can be probability amplitude that something exists at more than one place PRIOR to measurement. But it doesn't, in any way means something exists at two places. Possibility is not synonymous with Actuality.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:33 AM   #5822
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This idea is popularised by the so-called laymen books by Kaku and co. This is a nonsense. We deal with probability amplitudes- there can be probability amplitude that something exists at more than one place PRIOR to measurement. But it doesn't, in any way means something exists at two places. Possibility is not synonymous with Actuality.
Says who?
Link?
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:32 AM   #5823
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So you copied the above from some reader on a philosophical website.

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com...easoning/32838

That's why you are too timid to lay out it's source and link. Come back after you are willing speak science, not religion
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:37 PM   #5824
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Btw in sub microscopic swampland, sub microscopic buffoons and non buffoons can not see light photons directly. On the quantum level, your eyes are smaller than all wavelengths of all visible light. How can you recognize anything at all in sub microscopic swampland?
Because I don't live in that realm?
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:39 PM   #5825
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So you copied the above from some reader on a philosophical website.

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com...easoning/32838

That's why you are too timid to lay out it's source and link. Come back after you are willing speak science, not religion
Well...at least you're smarter than Actor. (Not that that's saying very much.)
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:40 PM   #5826
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We were speaking of fuzziness specifically

Try to keep up whiz kid

So...in the world of Fuzzy you can see time?
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:10 PM   #5827
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Your second premise is a claim, made by you, and thus the burden of proof is on you.
My claim is what YOU (as an atheisitic materialist) believe. Since you now very obviously disagree with the second premise ,you can only be implying that you believe the physical universe(s) is not all that exists. And this is all that second premise really stated: that the origin of the universe is purely physical -- that the physical created (caused) the physical -- the natural created (caused) the natural, and this is how the universe came into existence.

Here is what I wrote for my second premise:

2. The Universe came into existence by, in and of itself, according to atheistic materialism.

Smooth move, Mr Ex.....(well you know the rest). You have just allowed the divine foot into the door of the universe with your denial of the second premise.

But...of course, if you also disagree with this only other viable alternative to a purely physical/natural origin to the universe then actually answer my questions in 5733 or 5774, you wussy weasel. Tell us plainly what OUTSIDE the universe caused the universe since it didn't cause itself. And if you say multiverses, then you need to tell us what caused the first one.
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:18 PM   #5828
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Who is sparky?

Logic is not as clear on the quantum level, due to all the conditions I mentioned. Particularly for self absorbed whiz kids.
Clearly then, you should not hang around the realm that confuses you because of its probabilistic ambiguities. Stick with the real world -- the world in which absolutes exists and can be measured by the absolute laws of logic.
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Old 03-19-2018, 04:19 PM   #5829
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So you copied the above from some reader on a philosophical website.

https://philosophy.stackexchange.com...easoning/32838

That's why you are too timid to lay out it's source and link. Come back after you are willing speak science, not religion
Better yet...you come back when you want to talk the laws of logic upon which real science is grounded.
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Old 03-19-2018, 07:05 PM   #5830
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Here is what I wrote for my second premise:

2. The Universe came into existence ...
That is the Hawking-Penrose Theorem and, as I have pointed out, Hawking and Penrose themselves disproved it. That being the case nothing can be known about the state of the universe prior 1.0E(-43) seconds. I have also pointed this out.

Thus, not only have you neglected to prove Premise 2, but minds far better than yours or mine have proven it false.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:10 PM   #5831
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That is the Hawking-Penrose Theorem and, as I have pointed out, Hawking and Penrose themselves disproved it. That being the case nothing can be known about the state of the universe prior 1.0E(-43) seconds. I have also pointed this out.

Thus, not only have you neglected to prove Premise 2, but minds far better than yours or mine have proven it false.
So, what.? That's two people's OPINION. And that's all it is because many scientists, I'm sure, disagree with them. Besides, how could they prove anything about the state of universe "prior 1.0E (-43 seconds)?

So, are you also saying that this ignorance about the state of universe applies equally to the theory of an eternal universe?
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:17 PM   #5832
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So, what.? That's two people's OPINION.
I'm confident that it's a lot more than two. If you are going to play the OPINION card what would make your OPINION more valid that theirs?

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And that's all it is because many scientists, I'm sure, disagree with them.
I'm also confident that it's not very many. But we're getting into argumentum ad populum.. I'll simply say that the scientists's "opinions" are based on evidence whereas yours is based on wishful thinking. You have yet to prove that "atheistic materialism" is "self refuting." (Those were your words. Right?)

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Besides, how could they prove anything about the state of universe "prior 1.0E (-43 seconds)?
They couldn't and neither could you. That's the point. You are committing both the fallacy of False Dilemma (assuming that there are only two possibilities when there could be three or more) and the fallacy of Argument from Ignorance (assuming that if one outcome cannot be proven then the other must be true.)

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So, are you also saying that this ignorance about the state of universe applies equally to the theory of an eternal universe?
No, because quantum theory is the theory of the very small, and the universe would have been very small at 1.0E(-43) seconds, but it would have been very large at 1.0 second.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:37 AM   #5833
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Clearly then, you should not hang around the realm that confuses you because of its probabilistic ambiguities. Stick with the real world -- the world in which absolutes exists and can be measured by the absolute laws of logic.You are out of it.
What is "real" tends to become harder and harder for you to comprehend, stuck in your local human scale experience. Your worshipping of the law of non contradiction, if used as rigidly as you do, severly limits your thinking. For instance this rather simplistic comment from some reader on a philosophical website..."We deal with probability amplitudes- there can be probability amplitude that something exists at more than one place PRIOR to measurement. But it doesn't, in any way means something exists at two places. Possibility is not synonymous with Actuality." doers not apply to "quantum mechanics: entanglement". Does it?

https://www.space.com/37506-quantum-...shattered.html

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.. Spooky pairs

The experiment takes advantage of one of several phenomena that describes quantum mechanics: entanglement, or "spooky action at a distance," as Albert Einstein called it. When two particles are entangled, they remain connected so that an action performed on one affects the other as well, no matter how far apart the two are. In the same vein, when one measures the state of one particle in the entangled duo, you'd automatically know the state of the second. Physicists call the states "correlated," because if one particle — a photon, for example — is in an "up" state, its entangled partner will be in a "down" state — a kind of mirror image. (Strictly speaking, there are four possible combinations for the two particles to be in).

The weird part is that once the state of the first particle is measured, the second one somehow "knows" what state it should be in. The information seems to travel instantaneously, without a speed-of-light limit. [8 Ways You Can See Einstein's Theory of Relativity in Real Life]
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:41 AM   #5834
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So...in the world of Fuzzy you can see time?
Please quote where I said anything remotely liker this.

You however went on and on claiming no real science can observe anything unless it is "directly observed", that is until I mentioned a microscope.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:51 AM   #5835
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Who is sparky?

Logic is not as clear on the quantum level, due to all the conditions I mentioned. Particularly for self absorbed whiz kids.
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Clearly then, you should not hang around the realm that confuses you because of its probabilistic ambiguities. Stick with the real world -- the world in which absolutes exists and can be measured by the absolute laws of logic.
You just don't understand the quantum level is too "fuzzy" to be certain of the classical law of non contradiction as sloppily as you use it.

However the quantum level is as real as the computer on your desk

Who is Sparky?
Ad hominem again no doubt
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