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Old 09-02-2010, 08:30 PM   #61
Indulto
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Originally Posted by Charli125
I had to laugh when I read this. I've always thought that starting a non-profit ADW would be the way to go; it just makes sense to me. Rebate everything over the signal fee(and overhead of course) to the players. Handle would go through the roof. Unfortunately, the only tracks you would be able to get would be Tioga and Arapahoe or something like that. You would immediately be boycotted by every track for "stealing" all of their on-track players.
It does to me also, but logic will not overcome the crisis in California, only passion, determination, and the willingness to talk up takeout at every opportunity. If we can't talk to players at racetracks and OTBs, then maybe we have to be avaiable to them at supermarkets. gas stations,fast food places, etc.

There is no easy way to make this happen. Demonstrations are vital. Since Inglewood wants to get rid of Hollywood Park, perhaps it won't be as hard to get permits there, especially if we weren't boycitting therer, but rather informing. Maybe nearby out-of-staters like yourself would participate?

Perhaps a HANA headquarters outside Hollywood Park would make sense during Oak Tree.
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Old 09-02-2010, 08:31 PM   #62
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I think we have some laws about "restraint of trade"...So if HorseplayersBet. com(Example only) decided to handle our business exclusive,and gave us all a large rebate, and charged a "Membership Fee" he would be boycotted by the horsemen and tracks restricting his signal and access?

Any lawyers out there?


Just thinking out loud...

What if...A major ADW supplier for California and the CHRB were approached to allow group memberships (Like HANA) play at a reduced rate, (Rebates or special rate) for California tracks? Good for California,Good for the chosen ADW, and good for the core player. The CHRB can do anything they want, and they want more business.

It would avoid confrontation and be good for P.R between California and HANA

Is this a pipe dream or ?

No one would be denied access...just join HANA!

rwwupl

Last edited by rwwupl; 09-02-2010 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 09-02-2010, 08:52 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by rwwupl
Just thinking out loud...

What if...A major ADW supplier for California and the CHRB were approached to allow group memberships (Like HANA) play at a reduced rate, (Rebates or special rate) for California tracks? Good for California,Good for the chosen ADW, and good for the core player. The CHRB can do anything they want, and they want more business.

It would avoid confrontation and be good for P.R between California and HANA

Is this a pipe dream or ?

No one would be denied access...just join HANA!

rwwupl
I'm just thinking out loud as well. I know that there are many hurdles for ADW's to get access to various signals, and I assume these can be pretty selective depending on who you are. If HANA did that type of thing, I doubt it would get approved because the CHRB would say that it gave HANA members an unfair advantage over ontrack, and other ADW players.

It would make perfect sense to do that, and handle would explode, but I bet there is a way they could stop it. Like I said, I don't know this as fact, but that's my guess. I'd be interested to hear what HPB has to say.
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Old 09-02-2010, 08:59 PM   #64
andymays
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We have to either not bet or bet offshore when the word comes down.

If it's effective then we might be able to get them to put in one super low takeout wager like the Horseplayers Early pick 4 with a 10% take. Once that's in it will prove our point over the course of a year. Handle on that bet will skyrocket over previous years and they will have to admit they were wrong.

That might be something that could be accomplished with a 3 day suspension of play. Not only will we see how effective we can be they might be willing to negotiate a truce. Everyone should be able to stay away for 3 days.

Last edited by andymays; 09-02-2010 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:06 PM   #65
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they will have to admit they were wrong.
But they don't care Andy. They could pass a law that the sky is blue on a day that it is raining.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:14 PM   #66
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But they don't care Andy. They could pass a law that the sky is blue on a day that it is raining.
If you make a statement for three days and handle drops anywhere from 15% to 30% they will have to play ball or we do it again. Three days is easy. We will also get plenty of headlines making it much easier the next time we might need to do it. Once people see that it can be done more people will participate.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:21 PM   #67
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I'm not talking about that Andy; I am speaking about the "10% players pick 4" or whatever it is. They could offer me a 0% pick 4 and I would not spend a dime on it.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:24 PM   #68
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I'm not talking about that Andy; I am speaking about the "10% players pick 4" or whatever it is. They could offer me a 0% pick 4 and I would not spend a dime on it.
I don't know why you don't get this.

It's a vehicle to prove that lowering takeout works. It's similar to Monmouth but because of short fields in Calfornia it has to be 10%. It's not on track only it's national.

It helps the tracks as well because more people are likely to get involved in the rest of the card. It also gets more people on track to play the first race instead of showing up for the third race like most do at Del Mar.

They're not going to lower takeout across the board are they?

This is something they might go for.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:30 PM   #69
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I don't know why you don't get this.
I get it just fine.

Takeout goes up by 15% for 80% of the pools. That means that 8 out of ten dollars bet at the track get taxed at a higher rate.

So now they put a pick 4 for about 10-15% of the pools down to 10% takeout.

The weighted average takeout is still higher.

California racing is like dating a heroin addict. Sometimes you just have to cut her loose.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:31 PM   #70
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I get it just fine.

Takeout goes up by 15% for 80% of the pools. That means that 8 out of ten dollars bet at the track get taxed at a higher rate.

So now they put a pick 4 for about 10-15% of the pools down to 10% takeout.

The weighted average takeout is still higher.

California racing is like dating a heroin addict. Sometimes you just have to cut her loose.

Are you trying to do something that can be accomplished or just talk for the next 10 years?

Why aren't you going after New York?
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:35 PM   #71
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Are you trying to do something that can be accomplished
By rejecting things where they somehow throw us a bone and we come crawling back to them, I am accomplishing something.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:38 PM   #72
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By rejecting things where they somehow throw us a bone and we come crawling back to them, I am accomplishing something.
You're in a leadership position. What's your plan? What are you going to tell members to do?

If not betting California races was so obvious then why hasn't handle plummeted if things are so bad?
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:41 PM   #73
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You're in a leadership position. What's your plan? What are you going to tell members to do?

If not betting California races was so obvious then why hasn't handle plummeted if things are so bad?
I am a horseplayer. If there is one thing I have learned since I started playing the races in grade 7 : NEVER tell horseplayers what to do.

Handle has plummeted in CA. That is why they are raising takeout. Bettors have long left the golden state for the greener pastures of 4% rake poker, Vegas, craps, sports betting and other value games.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:44 PM   #74
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I am a horseplayer. If there is one thing I have learned since I started playing the races in grade 7 : NEVER tell horseplayers what to do.

Handle has plummeted in CA. That is why they are raising takeout. Bettors have long left the golden state for the greener pastures of 4% rake poker, Vegas, craps, sports betting and other value games.
The handle has plummeted everywhere. Why pick on California then? Why aren't you calling for everyone to stop playing at every track that has parimutuel wagering?

HANA is a membership organization. People join to be part of the fight. They're looking for leadership.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:04 PM   #75
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The handle has plummeted everywhere. Why pick on California then? Why aren't you calling for everyone to stop playing at every track that has parimutuel wagering?
Ok, one more time dude. This is California. This is what we've been watching.

Recap:

They call for a takeout hike at Los Al. They tell horseplayers if handle goes down they can change it back.

Jeff spends 300 hours on it on behalf of horseplayers, showing handle went down.

They put together spreadsheets where it kinda went down, but it kinda didnt go down, and it really mighta went up, kinda. If the handle did actually go down, kinda, well "we think that it is because of the Olympics. " After all, I guess there are some studies done that show the people who watch short track speed skating, are big horse bettors. We have just never got to see it.

So, it looks like the takeout increase will be extended to September.

Nope, guess again: it is working "so well" (and I am thinking since the Olympics are over) they dont even do that - they extend it to the end of the year.

Having a rational conversation is impossible in CA, and it always has been.

You are welcome to ask them for a 10% pick 4, or a 10% coupon for hot dogs, or whatever else. It is a free country.

But I have seen the past few years what has happened in CA, and I am done with them.

The HANA members will decide, through dialogue like this and through ideas like yours what they want to do. The organization is not worth 2 cents if it does not solicit feedback and work on that feedback. People have not spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours in 2010 to suddenly make unilateral decisions for horseplayers, and they wont start now.

All I am saying is that for me personally: The heroin addict girlfriend has stolen the last hundred from my dresser.

Last edited by DeanT; 09-02-2010 at 10:05 PM.
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