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Old 06-23-2008, 12:49 PM   #31
delayjf
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No but you have the right to be fondled in the Catholic church. How many settlements have been made by this church, the catholic church. Yet has anyone done time behind bars?? But many thousands have done therapy I'm sure, right?
Is it your position that the Govenment is behind the Catholic Priest schandel? And yes, some have been criminally convicted, in fact one Priest was beatened to death while in Prison.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Tom
I think I will drill right here!

Oh my! A gusher!
Just remember now: Just don't take any big bites out of my income.

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Old 06-23-2008, 02:43 PM   #33
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Not me, but this guy might......the only thing that can stop him is a hanging chad!

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Old 06-23-2008, 09:28 PM   #34
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No but you have the right to be fondled in the Catholic church. How many settlements have been made by this church, the catholic church. Yet has anyone done time behind bars?? But many thousands have done therapy I'm sure, right?
So, you're changing the subject already?
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:32 PM   #35
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That is not Barack in that image.
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:50 PM   #36
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Doesn't matter, whoever it is will not care any more about the working poor than the last person.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by jognlope
Doesn't matter, whoever it is will not care any more about the working poor than the last person.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................!!! You are catching on to the Dem/Lib trap............L
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:42 AM   #38
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I can safely say that 99% of Americans will not be a part of any terror investigation. But hey, I guess you got me here....

How many Americans have been jailed indefinitely without a trial?
As opposed to addressing each point which would take a long time, I'll answer fundamentally one, and point you to a site to review the entire history of this mess.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...es_patriot_act

Within this link is an excellent quote:

"Several congresspeople submit a list of 50 questions to Attorney General Ashcroft, asking him how the Patriot Act is being implemented (see October 26, 2001). [New York Times, 7/14/2002] For instance, they ask, How many times has the department requested records from libraries, bookstores and newspapers? How many roving wiretaps has the department requested? Ashcroft refuses to answer many of the questions, even though he is legally required to do "

In other words your assurances of 99% cannot be confirmed at all since former Attorney General Ashcroft would not even answer the simplest of questions regarding this. Gonzalez did the same citing National security.

This goes to the crux of your question. what rights have I lost? You may feel that nothing fundamentally has changed regarding your own personal loss of rights, but the government via the Patriot Act has been given a much wider leeway in ignoring your personal freedoms. And your right of redress is drastically diminished, as well as your ability to even know or find out. Even Freedom of Information requests are rountinely now ignored by this WH citing national security.

So how many have been affected? Truthfully, we do not know as the WH has refused to share that information with us. We know some of the most egregious cases, but since the WH refuses to reveal the number of times they have invoked the Patriot Act and the number of times they've used it as opposed to prior law we're left to simply "trust them" without any acountablility. The government is not required to list the number of false arrests of American citizens it makes.

We know from Iraq we cannot trust what this WH tells us. Even Scott McClellan has tried to get that message out that there was more interest in propaganda than information. Paul O'Neill tried to reveal the same, as did Richard Clarke.

So if you choose to beleive you've lost no fundamental rights as a citizen, then by all means keep beleiving it. This WH relies on people like yourself to keep beleiving that. Just as they did that Al queda and Saddam Hussein were intrinsically linked and Hussein had massive stockpiles of WMD's poised to send a mushroom cloud over our cities. I would have thought you'd have learned by now, but your beleifs are so entrenched with this administration that it is hard to admit that perhaps you may have been wrong about them.

They're out of office in a few months, and whoever is elected it will be a better America for the Bush team's exit. No one could ever convince you because you've already made up your mind. You've bought into their madness and now you spend your time still trying to justify it.
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:24 AM   #39
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So Sec, what specific event is tied to your loss of any rights?
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:06 PM   #40
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I know this, just as the FBI has admitted wide misuse and abuse of the Patriot Act regulations that granted them enhanced rights, that when you "give" any gvt an inch they will take a mile.

Proven in many ways and in all periods of history worldwide.
It is one of the truisms of life, when you grant gvt enhanced special rights because of a momentary fear you regret it down the road.
Human nature kicks in.

National Security is a gvt mandate, but that doesn't mean they are any better at that than managing the economy,welfare programs, you name it.

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Old 06-24-2008, 01:43 PM   #41
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just one example

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/25392.html

Immigration officials detaining, deporting American citizens
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008

FLORENCE, Ariz. Thomas Warziniack was born in Minnesota and grew up in Georgia, but immigration authorities pronounced him an illegal immigrant from Russia.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement has held Warziniack for weeks in an Arizona detention facility with the aim of deporting him to a country he's never seen. His jailers shrugged off Warziniack's claims that he was an American citizen, even though they could have retrieved his Minnesota birth certificate in minutes and even though a Colorado court had concluded that he was a U.S. citizen a year before it shipped him to Arizona.

.....

"The immigration agents told me they never make mistakes," Warziniack said in an earlier phone interview from jail. "All I know is that somebody dropped the ball."

....

An unpublished study by the Vera Institute of Justice, a New York nonprofit organization, in 2006 identified 125 people in immigration detention centers across the nation who immigration lawyers believed had valid U.S. citizenship claims.

....

Nina Siulc, the lead researcher, said she thinks that many more American citizens probably are being erroneously detained or deported every year because her assessment looked at only a small number of those in custody. Each year, about 280,000 people are held on immigration violations at 15 federal detention centers and more than 400 state and local contract facilities nationwide.

Unlike suspects charged in criminal courts, detainees accused of immigration violations don't have a right to an attorney, and three-quarters of them represent themselves. Less affluent or resourceful U.S. citizens who are detained must try to maneuver on their own through a complicated system.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:01 PM   #42
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So was there a purpose for posting that?
Are you making some suggestion as to what to do about it?
Is there a point in there somewhere?
Were you detained?

What has changed here since Clinton was in office? Other than we are finally doing something about illegal imigration.

That is a weak example.

125 people huh?
What percentage of the over 20 million illegals NOT caught yet?
.0000625%
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Last edited by Tom; 06-24-2008 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:36 AM   #43
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The more Obama talks, the more trouble he seems to get into. Just saw an interesting article in the New York Times which noted Obama's ties to ethanol.......this is a big mistake, IMO. Here the Dems have a 6 percentage point lead but by November, they could easily screw this up and being on the "pro" ethanol side is a good way to start screwing that up.
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Old 06-25-2008, 01:41 AM   #44
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Monkey man, Tom, gets my vote if he choses Roadrunner as his V.P. Beep, beep!
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Old 06-25-2008, 03:25 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretariat
Immigration officials detaining, deporting American citizens
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008
This has little to do with the point you were making. This is simply an example of a customs officer on an ego-trip, or an idiot...take your pick.

Believe me, this "Russian" is going to eventually score a big settlement from someone when this mess is cleared up....

If this is your best example of someone being jailed without any recourse, then things are much better than even I thought out there....

And from the looks of things, it appears Sec has drunk some mighty fine Kool-Aid as of late, because his rhetoric has been dialed up a few notches, not unlike our dear old friend Suff, who makes a cameo every now and then, just to tell us all in off-topic that we're horrible Americans (and mental midgets) if we're not all lapping at the balls of Obama....(horrible imagery, I know, but I felt I needed to get the point across...it's tough getting noticed these days).
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