Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Off Topic > Off Topic - Poker


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 4 votes, 5.00 average.
Old 01-10-2018, 05:00 PM   #256
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 13,357
Rep Power: 26 classhandicapper will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz View Post
What you describe above is not "hustling." It is "game making." Of course, I am presupposing that we're not talking about shark vs. guppie. In that case, a predator is a predator. (I couldn't sleep at night if I were a predator.)

As many people here have "admitted" to, I was also a serious pool player in my youth. Growing up in Miami, it was a very tough "market," because there were a lot of big boys back then.

While I thought I was a pretty good player - once ran 72 balls in a game of straight pool - it was acutely obvious (because of the local competition) that I was not a "real" pool player.

I was good enough to make a small living because of my "gamesmanship." That is, my ability to "make a good game," and not tilt at windmills.

I learned very quickly that I had no business at the same table with those whales with names like DiLiberto, "Corn Bread," "Weanie Beenie," and the like.

But it was all about game making. Kind of like horse racing.


Dave
PS: With the exception of Danny D, all of those guys have died, many violently or via drugs.
I heard of all those guys.

I used to play in Queens NY at a place named The Golden Cue in the late 70s. The action in that place was unbelievable. Martin, Hopkins, Nagy, Miserak, Margo, Murphy, and a bunch of other solid players used to gamble there and road players were constantly stopping in. My high run was a 93 and I wasn't even a thought in that joint. I used to sit the stands of the exhibition table and watch world champions battle it out for hours. When I think back on it now, I was in heaven and didn't know it.
__________________
"Money won is twice as sweet as money earned." Fast Eddie Felson
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-10-2018, 05:01 PM   #257
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 17,787
Rep Power: 29 lamboguy will become famous soon enoughlamboguy will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I fully understand what you are saying.

Let's put it this way.

A few years back I had no moral problem with watching games at Party Poker, looking for a table with a couple of weak players, and jumping in when I found one. The tables were open and I didn't mislead or trick anyone.

I would have a problem with hiding my pool skill or tricking someone into playing on a table they could not handle so I could take advantage of them.

When you are active in a deception, you are in an different place.
i wasn't alive for this, but in the old days guys used get the information about various company's that came over the wires, they held up the information, and people walked into the bucket shops and nailed them for their cash. i never heard of any of those guys having to give back the money. all Ivy did was find an edge. the house has an edge. he did nothing wrong in my book, and their are other precedents before he did what he did. of course the cage in a casino is licensed as a bank, and banks have every edge imaginable. that's why they got him for his money.
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-10-2018, 06:21 PM   #258
Valuist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Bay
Posts: 15,898
Rep Power: 31 Valuist will become famous soon enoughValuist will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by horses4courses View Post
If Ivey could prove that the casino cheated him out of that money,
the house would have no option but to return his stake money.
Gamblers seldom see two sides to this story.

A sloppy dealer exposing a hole card is a different situation.
However, with regard to the gambler's motivation to enter the casino in the
first place, there may be parallels. A person who seeks out weak dealers
to supplement his/her income, and only plays when they can gain that edge,
shouldn't expect to be allowed to remain on a casino blackjack table very long.

Likewise, only entering a high stakes gambling establishment when you have
inside knowledge of a flaw in the manufacture of the playing cards, doesn't give
you the right to turn that casino into your personal ATM machine.

Case closed.
H4C,

You said you work in surveillance. But we know you are a gambler as well.

Do you ban card counters? And if so, isn't that hypocritical? As long as they are using their mind and not any electronic, or cheating device, why should they be banned?
Valuist is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-10-2018, 06:25 PM   #259
Valuist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Bay
Posts: 15,898
Rep Power: 31 Valuist will become famous soon enoughValuist will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by horses4courses View Post
If Ivey could prove that the casino cheated him out of that money,
the house would have no option but to return his stake money.
Gamblers seldom see two sides to this story.

A sloppy dealer exposing a hole card is a different situation.
However, with regard to the gambler's motivation to enter the casino in the
first place, there may be parallels. A person who seeks out weak dealers
to supplement his/her income, and only plays when they can gain that edge,
shouldn't expect to be allowed to remain on a casino blackjack table very long.

Likewise, only entering a high stakes gambling establishment when you have
inside knowledge of a flaw in the manufacture of the playing cards, doesn't give
you the right to turn that casino into your personal ATM machine.

Case closed.
Back to Ivey,

Ivey won and the cage wouldn't pay him. The casino had every opportunity to turn down Ivey's request. They took a free roll instead. Keep the money if they win, and don't pay up if they take a beating.

This was a U.K. casino so the same laws here don't necessarily apply.

Am I shocked an American and Chinese woman lost their lawsuit against the UK casino? Not at all.
Valuist is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 01:12 AM   #260
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 13,357
Rep Power: 26 classhandicapper will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
H4C,

You said you work in surveillance. But we know you are a gambler as well.

Do you ban card counters? And if so, isn't that hypocritical? As long as they are using their mind and not any electronic, or cheating device, why should they be banned?
I totally agree on card counting.

Memorization and mathematics are a part of all card games. If you happen to develop of method measuring the value of the deck and what moves you should make depending on what cards remain, you are skilled, following the rules, not trying to make a "move", and should not be barred.

The casino should then be free to change the rules.

Other players should then be free to stop playing the game if the rules give the house too big an edge.

The casino should be forced into balancing their desire to avoid losses to great players against their desire to keep other players playing the game.

To be honest, if a handful of people can and do beat the game, I think it can actually turn into a positive for the casino as long as the amounts aren't crazy.

When I was in my 20s I was skilled enough to use a simple +1/-1 card counting system and adjust my play marginally. I didn't win any money in my limited experience in Atlantic City (a friend of mine was a winning player), but what initially attracted me to the game was that it could be beaten. When Atlantic City started upping the number of decks and shuffling sooner, I lost interest in the game and never played again.

Many people are like me and not all of them win. If it becomes obvious no one can win, many will drop out. The same is true of horses. The tougher the game gets, the more people drop out.
__________________
"Money won is twice as sweet as money earned." Fast Eddie Felson

Last edited by classhandicapper; 01-11-2018 at 01:13 AM.
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 05:33 AM   #261
thaskalos
"Are you talking to ME?"
 
thaskalos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 19,671
Rep Power: 36 thaskalos is just really nicethaskalos is just really nicethaskalos is just really nicethaskalos is just really nicethaskalos is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I totally agree on card counting.

Memorization and mathematics are a part of all card games. If you happen to develop of method measuring the value of the deck and what moves you should make depending on what cards remain, you are skilled, following the rules, not trying to make a "move", and should not be barred.

The casino should then be free to change the rules.

Other players should then be free to stop playing the game if the rules give the house too big an edge.

The casino should be forced into balancing their desire to avoid losses to great players against their desire to keep other players playing the game.

To be honest, if a handful of people can and do beat the game, I think it can actually turn into a positive for the casino as long as the amounts aren't crazy.

When I was in my 20s I was skilled enough to use a simple +1/-1 card counting system and adjust my play marginally. I didn't win any money in my limited experience in Atlantic City (a friend of mine was a winning player), but what initially attracted me to the game was that it could be beaten. When Atlantic City started upping the number of decks and shuffling sooner, I lost interest in the game and never played again.

Many people are like me and not all of them win. If it becomes obvious no one can win, many will drop out. The same is true of horses. The tougher the game gets, the more people drop out.
Horse racing is different...IMO. With the exception of the mindless game of slots...horse racing is the only gambling game where the player can participate with a very small investment...while staying at the track or the OTB all day, without having anyone there pressuring him to keep playing so he can keep his seat. And if you bet horses online...today's mini-minimum bets allow you to entertain yourself all day, without losing more than you would spend on a movie, a bag of popcorn, and a large coke.

At the nearby casinos and poker rooms...the minimum bets are high enough to invite losses which would make the average horseplayer's HEAD spin. And at the casino...you have to LEAVE the gambling tables when your money is gone.
__________________
"My object in living is to unite
My avocation and my vocation
As my two eyes make one in sight.
Only when love and need are one,
And the work is play for mortal stakes,
Is the deed ever really done
For Heaven and the future's sakes."

-- Robert Frost
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 10:50 AM   #262
horses4courses
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,860
Rep Power: 19 horses4courses will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I totally agree on card counting.

Memorization and mathematics are a part of all card games. If you happen to develop of method measuring the value of the deck and what moves you should make depending on what cards remain, you are skilled, following the rules, not trying to make a "move", and should not be barred.

The casino should then be free to change the rules.

Other players should then be free to stop playing the game if the rules give the house too big an edge.

The casino should be forced into balancing their desire to avoid losses to great players against their desire to keep other players playing the game.

To be honest, if a handful of people can and do beat the game, I think it can actually turn into a positive for the casino as long as the amounts aren't crazy.

When I was in my 20s I was skilled enough to use a simple +1/-1 card counting system and adjust my play marginally. I didn't win any money in my limited experience in Atlantic City (a friend of mine was a winning player), but what initially attracted me to the game was that it could be beaten. When Atlantic City started upping the number of decks and shuffling sooner, I lost interest in the game and never played again.

Many people are like me and not all of them win. If it becomes obvious no one can win, many will drop out. The same is true of horses. The tougher the game gets, the more people drop out.
Sharp post
__________________
A breeding ground for ignorance.
horses4courses is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 11:17 AM   #263
horses4courses
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,860
Rep Power: 19 horses4courses will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
Do you ban card counters? And if so, isn't that hypocritical? As long as they are using their mind and not any electronic, or cheating device, why should they be banned?
No, I do not make the decision whether, or not, to ban card counters.


If any casino made it "open season" for successful advantage players on their tables,
they would be closing those tables pretty quickly, and becoming slot
houses. Card counters are a dime a dozen, though. It's the ones who can
manage their bankrolls that turn a profit. They're not breaking the law but,
at the same time, the casino is not legally bound to take their action.

If anyone is backed off from any game, it should be done discreetly.
In most cases, they are welcome to remain on property.
__________________
A breeding ground for ignorance.
horses4courses is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 01:41 PM   #264
Valuist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Bay
Posts: 15,898
Rep Power: 31 Valuist will become famous soon enoughValuist will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by horses4courses View Post
No, I do not make the decision whether, or not, to ban card counters.


If any casino made it "open season" for successful advantage players on their tables,
they would be closing those tables pretty quickly, and becoming slot
houses. Card counters are a dime a dozen, though. It's the ones who can
manage their bankrolls that turn a profit. They're not breaking the law but,
at the same time, the casino is not legally bound to take their action.

If anyone is backed off from any game, it should be done discreetly.
In most cases, they are welcome to remain on property.
Fair enough. This sounds like a very sensible point of view. With some of the horror stories out there, I don't think everyone is as enlightened as you. But glad to hear a surveillance person acknowledge kicking out everyone who's even playing at a slight advantage would be bad for business.
Valuist is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 02:01 PM   #265
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 17,787
Rep Power: 29 lamboguy will become famous soon enoughlamboguy will become famous soon enough
what do you guys want to do? take up a collection for the casino's of the world?

these casino's have ruined more family's and humans than carter has liver pills.

its a non productive business, there is nothing good about casino's. if you can get them for their doe, go for it.
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 02:50 PM   #266
Valuist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Bay
Posts: 15,898
Rep Power: 31 Valuist will become famous soon enoughValuist will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy View Post
what do you guys want to do? take up a collection for the casino's of the world?

these casino's have ruined more family's and humans than carter has liver pills.

its a non productive business, there is nothing good about casino's. if you can get them for their doe, go for it.
Not me. I'm all for APs taking as much money as possible from them (legally). Ivey has been wronged, IMO.
Valuist is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 03:19 PM   #267
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 17,787
Rep Power: 29 lamboguy will become famous soon enoughlamboguy will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valuist View Post
Not me. I'm all for APs taking as much money as possible from them (legally). Ivey has been wronged, IMO.
sorry about that, i misunderstood you.

you are a good guy in my book.
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-11-2018, 03:26 PM   #268
Valuist
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: East Bay
Posts: 15,898
Rep Power: 31 Valuist will become famous soon enoughValuist will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy View Post
sorry about that, i misunderstood you.

you are a good guy in my book.
Thx.

I also respect your opinions.
Valuist is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-12-2018, 03:51 PM   #269
classhandicapper
Registered User
 
classhandicapper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 13,357
Rep Power: 26 classhandicapper will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamboguy View Post
what do you guys want to do? take up a collection for the casino's of the world?

these casino's have ruined more family's and humans than carter has liver pills.

its a non productive business, there is nothing good about casino's. if you can get them for their doe, go for it.
I think we'd be way better off as a society if there was no gambling at all. But people enjoy gambling. So they should be free to gamble. Personally, I don't enjoy gambling. I enjoy winning at games that other people gamble at.

My problem or good point is guilt.

I can't actively try to deceive someone for an edge. Let me give you 2 examples.

I started playing pool again in the mid 90s. They had local tournaments in Queens for C through B+ players and I wanted to play. No one knew my game because I had quit years ago and was just coming back. I got back in stroke and had to be rated. The owner of the room I played in watched me play for 30 minutes in practice. I did not hold back at all. He rated me a B-. I told him he was underrating me and that I was going to win a tournament quickly at that level. He said "No, B- is correct. Everyone thinks they are better than they are". I lost badly in the 1st round the first week. It was the first time I played competitively in a long time and I was very jittery. He dropped me to C+. I told him he was going to be sorry. This was going to make him look bad because I was a local guy and it would like a setup. I won the next week. He raised me back to B-. I won the next week and he raised me to B. I made the finals the next week and then won the super tournament and he made me a B+ (which was the correct rating at the time). I did nothing wrong. I even proactively tried to correct the error. But I took the money and he took the heat.

When I was 18-19 and broke a new guy started coming into the room. He was dropping $100 almost every time he played and had no idea he was playing people much better than him. I immediately suspected he was kind of "slow" intellectually. He was 2-3 levels below me and asked me to play. From the conversation I could tell I was right so I said "No thank you". Every hustler in the joint started yelling at me privately telling me that this guy was going to drop $100 to someone no matter what I did, so it might as well be in my pocket rather someone else's. I needed that $100 badly, but I couldn't do it. I watched other people take the $100 every time he came in. One day I was dead stone broke and an old time hustler finally talked me into it. It's 40 years later and I still regret that decision every time I think about it.
__________________
"Money won is twice as sweet as money earned." Fast Eddie Felson

Last edited by classhandicapper; 01-12-2018 at 03:59 PM.
classhandicapper is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 01-12-2018, 05:36 PM   #270
lamboguy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Boston+Ocala
Posts: 17,787
Rep Power: 29 lamboguy will become famous soon enoughlamboguy will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I think we'd be way better off as a society if there was no gambling at all. But people enjoy gambling. So they should be free to gamble. Personally, I don't enjoy gambling. I enjoy winning at games that other people gamble at.

My problem or good point is guilt.

I can't actively try to deceive someone for an edge. Let me give you 2 examples.

I started playing pool again in the mid 90s. They had local tournaments in Queens for C through B+ players and I wanted to play. No one knew my game because I had quit years ago and was just coming back. I got back in stroke and had to be rated. The owner of the room I played in watched me play for 30 minutes in practice. I did not hold back at all. He rated me a B-. I told him he was underrating me and that I was going to win a tournament quickly at that level. He said "No, B- is correct. Everyone thinks they are better than they are". I lost badly in the 1st round the first week. It was the first time I played competitively in a long time and I was very jittery. He dropped me to C+. I told him he was going to be sorry. This was going to make him look bad because I was a local guy and it would like a setup. I won the next week. He raised me back to B-. I won the next week and he raised me to B. I made the finals the next week and then won the super tournament and he made me a B+ (which was the correct rating at the time). I did nothing wrong. I even proactively tried to correct the error. But I took the money and he took the heat.

When I was 18-19 and broke a new guy started coming into the room. He was dropping $100 almost every time he played and had no idea he was playing people much better than him. I immediately suspected he was kind of "slow" intellectually. He was 2-3 levels below me and asked me to play. From the conversation I could tell I was right so I said "No thank you". Every hustler in the joint started yelling at me privately telling me that this guy was going to drop $100 to someone no matter what I did, so it might as well be in my pocket rather someone else's. I needed that $100 badly, but I couldn't do it. I watched other people take the $100 every time he came in. One day I was dead stone broke and an old time hustler finally talked me into it. It's 40 years later and I still regret that decision every time I think about it.
the casino's don't feel bad when i lose, and i am thrilled when they go for their money. i am also ecstatic for anyone that takes the casino down for their cash, i only wish they could get more of it.

i only hope that Phil Ivey was smart enough to hide the money so the casino can't put their hands on it.
lamboguy is online now   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
» Current Polls
Is adding 30 to 60 feet to the run up for the Pegasus a good idea?
Yes, good idea - 66.67%
4 Votes
No, bad idea - 33.33%
2 Votes
Total Votes: 6
Non-members may not vote on this poll.
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2017 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved -- Best Viewed in a modern browser @ 1280x720 Resolution Or Higher
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.