This is the saddest statement I've read in quite some time...

[PaceAdvantage]

From an article about today's elections in Spain:

Many voters said they were furious with the government for backing the U.S.-led war in Iraq and making Spain a target for al-Qaida, which claimed responsibility for the bombings.

WTF is wrong with these people? It doesn't matter if the war in Iraq was right or wrong? The only thing that matters to these people is if their actions will make al-Qaida more or less ANGRY at them???

WTF, WTF, WTF?????!!!!!!?????

Don't they get it? How screwed up is the world when right and wrong doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that apparently matters is if criminals will target your house if you go after them...

Give me a FREAKIN BREAK! Thank God I live in America.

[BillW]

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
From an article about today's elections in Spain:



WTF is wrong with these people? It doesn't matter if the war in Iraq was right or wrong? The only thing that matters to these people is if their actions will make al-Qaida more or less ANGRY at them???

WTF, WTF, WTF?????!!!!!!?????

Don't they get it? How screwed up is the world when right and wrong doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that apparently matters is if criminals will target your house if you go after them...

Give me a FREAKIN BREAK! Thank God I live in America.

It'll be interesting to see what message the ETA get out of this.

[Dave_K]

Your response is as illogical (and simple-minded) as you presume "these people" (the Spanish) to be. Contrary to what you think, it does matter to them (I know, I'm married to one of "these people") whether the war in Iraq was right or wrong -- your problem is that they disagree with you and believed it to be wrong. Your argument only works if they 1) believed the war was right, but 2) didn't want to get involved for fear of terrorist retaliatory attacks. Since #1 is not true your argument doesn't work.

Jeez, talk about kicking someone when they're down....and not just someone, but supposedly our second most important ally after Britain.

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
From an article about today's elections in Spain:



WTF is wrong with these people? It doesn't matter if the war in Iraq was right or wrong? The only thing that matters to these people is if their actions will make al-Qaida more or less ANGRY at them???

WTF, WTF, WTF?????!!!!!!?????

Don't they get it? How screwed up is the world when right and wrong doesn't matter anymore. The only thing that apparently matters is if criminals will target your house if you go after them...

Give me a FREAKIN BREAK! Thank God I live in America.

[JustRalph]

So now the terrorists Govern the country of Spain. That is what this means. Government by terror. The people of Spain deserve everything they get from this point on. I will be writing to my Congressmen and urging them to support a resolution against Spain and its actions post attack.

Contrast this with the response of the United States. We got tough on terrorists and the people of Spain lay down like whipped dogs. This is the true difference between old Europe and the United States. Don't ever forget that we dominate the world, because of these differences. Nothing has changed since War World II. I join PA and am thankful that I live in the U.S.

[Dave_K]

You completely missed the argument (by just reiterating the illogic of PA).

Originally posted by JustRalph
So now the terrorists Govern the country of Spain. That is what this means. Government by terror. The people of Spain deserve everything they get from this point on. I will be writing to my Congressmen and urging them to support a resolution against Spain and its actions post attack.

Contrast this with the response of the United States. We got tough on terrorists and the people of Spain lay down like whipped dogs. This is the true difference between old Europe and the United States. Don't ever forget that we dominate the world, because of these differences. Nothing has changed since War World II. I join PA and am thankful that I live in the U.S.

[Tom]

I agree with PA and JR. You vcan't allow the terrorists to win.
Hey, it's their country, thier election.
Their problem.
Same to England if they dump Blair.

[Larry Hamilton]

Dave, what it appears to me is that you are twisting the earlier statements to make it fit your desires.


Many voters said they were furious with the government for backing the U.S.-led war in Iraq and making Spain a target for al-Qaida, which claimed responsibility for the bombings.




No matter how you twist that, it says they were heros when there was no cost, after a cost was extracted by the bad guys, they showed yellow...

[Dave_K]

And what exactly are my "desires"?

I'm just amazed that 3 days after a terrorist attack on one of our staunchest allies, people are heaping insults on Spain, calling them stupid and weak-willed, etc. With friends like you guys, who needs terrorists, I mean, enemies.

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
Dave, what it appears to me is that you are twisting the earlier statements to make it fit your desires.


Many voters said they were furious with the government for backing the U.S.-led war in Iraq and making Spain a target for al-Qaida, which claimed responsibility for the bombings.




No matter how you twist that, it says they were heros when there was no cost, after a cost was extracted by the bad guys, they showed yellow...

[Secretariat]

Well said Dave. The opinion of the rest of the world doesn't matter to many on this site, only the opinion of the Bush administration.

I think you made your case succinctly.

[Larry Hamilton]

I didnt call them stupid or weak willed, I called them cowards and based on the facts as stated in the front of this thread, I stand by that.


As to your desires, I dont know what they are.

[cryptic1]

Its probably true that the majority of Spaniards believe that
they would not be the target of terrorists but for their countries
support for the war in Iraq. However appealing this believe is,
its naive and plainly wrong. With or without the war in Iraq
Islamist terrorist had made it clear that they were out to under-
mine the west in general not just the U.S. In fact many of Bin
Ladin's tapes spoke of the wrongs in the Andulusian area that
were to be rectified. This kneejerk reaction of the Spanish
electorate underlines how weak the stomachs are in western
Europe for dealing with the realilty of terrorism. Western
Europeans delude themselves if they think they would be immune
to terrorism but for supporting the U.S.
Likewise, those Americans who say the rest of the world can't
be wrong it must be us, are dangerously naive. World opinion is
and should be meaningless to a sovereign nation protecting its
interests. Why should the U.S. concern itself with the opinions of
other nations who are not as altruistic as the left would have you
believe. Take France for example. Their opposition to the Iraq
war had more to do with their goal of leading a united EU than
any ideological or moral stance. Their machiavellian approach to
politics determined their stance not moral principles. Likewise,
Russia, is in the process of redefininig itself as a major power and
chose to oppose the war as a way of distancing itself from the
U.S. Who else's opinion should we concern ourself with, certainly
not the Muslim block of nations with its emnity towards the U.S.
for a variety of real and imagined slights. The opposition to the
war in Iraq came either from countries acting out of their own
political self-interest or for other long term biases.
Frankly I'm not American, but as a citizen of this planet I am
concerned that many countries seem to want to relive past
mistakes. Appeasement, isolationism or blind neglect will not
stop the barbarians. We in the west made the same mistake
twice in the last century, assuming they are like us and live by
the same moral codes as we do. These terrorists don't share our
believes nor our morality. This will be a long fight made more
difficult by those who choose to believe that the U.S. is somehow
at fault.

A thoroughly disgusted
cryptic1

[Tom]

Originally posted by Secretariat
Well said Dave. The opinion of the rest of the world doesn't matter to many on this site, only the opinion of the Bush administration.

I think you made your case succinctly.

I could give a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks.
When they come up to the high standards we have set in this country, I'll pay attention to what they think.

[Dave_K]

Larry, the problem is that the things stated at the front of this thread are not facts. PA said that it didn't matter to Spaniards whether the war in Iraq was right or wrong. This is simply not true -- the overwhelming majority of the Spanish people were against the war from the outset.

In supporting the Iraq war, Aznar knowingly acted against 85-90% of the populace, and the result of today's election was largely a function of that.

Furthermore, to say that the outcome of today's election was a result of cowardice displays a very limited understanding of the events that lead to today's outcome.

First off, Aznar's party (PP) only showed a 3-5% edge in polls on the day before the attack. Then, immediately after the attack, PP declared that ETA was, without a doubt, responsible for the attack. Over the next 2 days, accumulating evidence pointed at Islamic extremists. During this time, PP continued to maintain that ETA was still the number one suspect. This was interpreted by many Spaniards as an attempt to exploit the attack for political gain, since one of the main planks in PP's platform was taking a hardline stance against ETA. Had PP not acted this way, there's a good chance they would have won today.

PS, it was Tom who called Spaniards stupid and weak-willed (on the other thread). As to my "desires", you're the one who brought them up, so I assumed you knew what they were.

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
I didnt call them stupid or weak willed, I called them cowards and based on the facts as stated in the front of this thread, I stand by that.


As to your desires, I dont know what they are.

[Secretariat]

I think the Spanish people reacted in their vote in the same way the polls have shown displeasure toward Blair's Iraq policy in England. Mistrust. It's not just Spain.

Spainards were told they were engaging in Iraq to stop WMD's, not to promote some democracy like has been fostered in this country. Spain is not interested in promoting democracy around the world. When the WMD's did not materialize as guaranted by people like Rumsfield, Wolfowitz and Rice skepticism abounded in Spain (and Britain). The people in Spain were never comfortable with the decision by Aznar to go into Iraq and Kay's report demonstrated that their fears may have been well founded.

Another piece which was never really covered much in the press over here was the dismissal of the actions aginst Katherine Gunn, the Blair whistle blower in England. The government filed charges against her and then withdrew those charges after the government refused to reveal information about Iraq which would have been damaging. The people in Spain are more aware of this than we are in the US. People don't want to feel duped by thier government and many obviously feel they'd been misled. Spain doesn't see the link between Bin Laden and Hussein's Iraq. They see it as two different issues. And they somehow feel that Spain's strong association with the US makes them a terrorist target which in fact has come to fruition.

The new Socialist leader has already promised to withdraw all Spanish troops from Iraq as his first act. About 1300. That means 1300 Americans will be taking thier place.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Dave_K
Larry, the problem is that the things stated at the front of this thread are not facts. PA said that it didn't matter to Spaniards whether the war in Iraq was right or wrong.

Not a fact? How else am I supposed to interpret the quote in my initial post in this thread? The quote did NOT say this:

"Many voters said they were furious with the government for backing the U.S.-led war in Iraq BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THE WAR WAS UNJUST."


What the quote said was that they were furious with the gov't for backing the U.S.-led war and making Spain a TARGET.

So, which is it? Do the majority of Spaniards think the war was unjust? Did they approve of the actions of Hussein through the years? Did they approve of the way Hussein thumbed his nose at their beloved UN?

Obviously, the people of Spain ARE basing their decisions, IN PART, on whether or not they are going to anger big bad al-Qaida. This is a sad state of affairs.

It's actually quite disgusting that any country would bow down to terrorists like this. If it's true that al-Qaida actually was responsible for this bombing, and this bombing affected the outcome of the election, I probably won't be posting for a while, since I'll be sick to my stomach.

So lets assume al-Qaida was responsible for blowing up that train. So now what? What do the people of Spain do? They vote out their government, blame them for backing the US war on terror, and blame the US as well.

Makes a ton of sense. How about blaming the sick scumbags who actually walked into the train with knapsacks full of explosives???!!!! Or are the people of Spain saying these terrorists are justified in their actions??? In some way, perhaps the people of Spain said EXACTLY THIS when they cast their vote and chose to change directions!

Yes, now I get it. Terrorists are now justifed, and the US is not. Makes a lot of sense to me now. Black=White Light=Dark