Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 09-19-2018, 09:23 AM   #1
ZippyChippy423
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 188
Is this the decade with the highest concentration of bettors dying off?

All the guys who have been betting horses the last 6 decades are approaching 80 years average age. They are all dying off and it shows at the OTB’s . I wonder what the ratio is comparing new fans to the ones dying off? Maybe for every 10 lost 1 is gained or am I way off? Maybe some tracks are losing money but sources say there are definitely less horse bettors but those betting are wagering more. Makes sense.
ZippyChippy423 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 03:45 PM   #2
AlsoEligible
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 234
Quote:
Maybe some tracks are losing money but sources say there are definitely less horse bettors but those betting are wagering more.
I think a lot of that is attributable to whale betting, and was discussed at the recent Jockey Club Round Table.

http://jockeyclub.com/default.asp?se...ar=2018&area=4

Quote:
A third but related shift is the growth of computer-assisted wagering, which is professional bettors using computer algorithms and automated bet placement software to place their bets. This activity has almost doubled in the past seven years at five tracks that McKinsey looked at and is now estimated to be between 16 to 19% of all handle.

Many experts that McKinsey spoke to believe that this growth has a natural limit, which they put at about 20% of overall handle.

You see, computer wagering players don't want to bet just against each other. They need recreational players in the pool to be profitable and continue betting. So we may be nearing the limits of the growth of the computer wagering that we've seen over the past seven years. If so, overall handle will decline again in the future, unless racing can grow to recreational bettors.
So from 2005-2011, overall handle was in a tailspin, dropping an average of -4.65% per year. From 2012 to present, that's leveled off, and handle has either remained steady or slightly increased (average increase of 0.22% per year).

Source: http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=8

I think there's a direct correlation between those numbers leveling off, and the rise of robobetting that started around the same time. The whales have effectively stopped the bleeding, but in doing so have covered up the fact that average bettors are still dying off, or walking away, and aren't being replaced. Meanwhile the industry is content to take their quarter-point increase in handle every year, and pretend that everything is fine.

But as McKinsey points out, the whales can only bet so much before they hit a point of diminishing returns, and they're very nearly there. Once they hit that wall - and coupling that with competition from sports betting - I think we see handle numbers start to drop again, which will set off a domino effect that will cause the contraction that racing has desperately needed. I expect to see a lot of tracks closing their doors over the next decade.
AlsoEligible is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 04:01 PM   #3
baconswitchfarm
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyChippy423 View Post
All the guys who have been betting horses the last 6 decades are approaching 80 years average age. They are all dying off and it shows at the OTB’s . I wonder what the ratio is comparing new fans to the ones dying off? Maybe for every 10 lost 1 is gained or am I way off? Maybe some tracks are losing money but sources say there are definitely less horse bettors but those betting are wagering more. Makes sense.







If I was guessing i would say 50 lost to 1 gained would be closer.
baconswitchfarm is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 04:11 PM   #4
biggestal99
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 4,520
If i we’re guessing I’d say racing was safe until people who are 40 (now) or so and younger are 70. that’s about 30 years. Unless racing powers change up it will die off around 2040 or so.

Sad....

Allan
biggestal99 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 04:27 PM   #5
bobphilo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
This is a very sad development and this decline is painfully evident when one tries to discuss racing amongst friends or people in general. Compared to other sports, most people know little and care less about it. The only exception being the Kentucky Derby, but even there knowledge is lacking. Compare this to the "golden age" of Secretariat, Affirmed vs. Alydar and Ruffian.
The only people I can even discuss racing with are online and now most think handicapping has something to do with the disabled.
bobphilo is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 04:54 PM   #6
AskinHaskin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZippyChippy423 View Post
Is this the decade with the highest concentration of bettors dying off?
Depends upon whether you mean that literally, or figuratively.


If literally, then of course each subsequent decade will have more (horse) bettors dying off, with this one eventually the new leader, for a short time.


But if figuratively, then it was probably the 1990's or the 2000's, as there are so relatively few left anymore that the effect of their own mortality is but a small fraction of that which track management largely drove away with pure stupidity in the 1990's and the 2000's.


You should also define when those bettors are counted as 'gone':


Was it when somebody wrote their obituary? Or was it the day after the latest pinheaded move by track management effected their final wager on a horse?
AskinHaskin is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 05:15 PM   #7
bobphilo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
Racing has lost it's place in the imagination of the American population. I bet if one were to do a "Man in the Street" survey of awareness of the Super Bowl compared to the Breeder's Cup the ratio would be 100 to 1 - unless that street was located across the street from Saratoga or Santa Anita. Compare this to the days when the racing exploits of Seabisbuit helped a nation cope with the Great Depression.

I wonder if the same state of affairs exists in Europe or Asia ? Maybe the U.K. and Australia would be exceptions.

Last edited by bobphilo; 09-19-2018 at 05:19 PM.
bobphilo is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 06:26 PM   #8
AltonKelsey
Veteran
 
AltonKelsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,831
I think it has a lot to do with the American public's IQ dipping below the 80 level.


Much easier to buy a lottery ticket or watch a few kneeling goons throw a ball around.
AltonKelsey is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 07:23 PM   #9
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
I think it has a lot to do with the American public's IQ dipping below the 80 level..
I think that people viewing horse betting from the outside would make the same claim about the horseplayer's IQ. With so many options for gambling at lower costs why would the expectation be growth?
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 07:27 PM   #10
thaskalos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
I think that people viewing horse betting from the outside would make the same claim about the horseplayer's IQ. With so many options for gambling at lower costs why would the expectation be growth?


Whenever I admit to people that I am a horseplayer...I always receive a "Wow, and I thought you were a smart guy" look in return.
__________________
Live to play another day.
thaskalos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 07:50 PM   #11
bobphilo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
I think it has a lot to do with the American public's IQ dipping below the 80 level.


Much easier to buy a lottery ticket or watch a few kneeling goons throw a ball around.

With horse racing being the one of the few forms of legal gambling where skill outweighs dumb luck, this is one occasion where I agree with you completely.
bobphilo is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 08:15 PM   #12
spiketoo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo View Post

With horse racing being the one of the few forms of legal gambling where skill outweighs dumb luck, this is one occasion where I agree with you completely.
I dunno. I'm a pretty skillful guy but after hitting 4 of 6 at BEL today, coulda used some dumb luck with Ortiz in the finale.
spiketoo is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 08:28 PM   #13
AndyC
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo View Post

With horse racing being the one of the few forms of legal gambling where skill outweighs dumb luck, this is one occasion where I agree with you completely.
Both poker and sports betting require skill for long term success and the price to play is much cheaper than racing.
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 08:41 PM   #14
aaron
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos View Post


Whenever I admit to people that I am a horseplayer...I always receive a "Wow, and I thought you were a smart guy" look in return.
You should ask all the "smart guys" how much profit they are showing from gambling ?
aaron is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 09-19-2018, 08:44 PM   #15
ReplayRandall
Buckle Up
 
ReplayRandall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron View Post
You should ask all the "smart guys" how much profit they are showing from gambling ?
Aaron, what are you implying when you posed your question to Thaskalos?...
ReplayRandall is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.