Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

No, you do not agree with Norman. You specifically told me there were no allegory and metaphors in the bible. We are not talking about simpler "figures" like a simile.

Norman Geisler specifically added
You refused to admit the parable of the mustard seed was metaphorical

The interpretive style I have given you repeatedly.......
Allegorical interpretation of the Bible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allego...n_of_the_Bible
Allegorical interpretation has its origins in both Greek thought and the rabbinical schools of Judaism. In the Middle Ages, it was used by Bible commentators of Christianity.

Nothing about the use of similes or hyperbole, or personifications, or oxymorons, etc.

None of these bunky

And Paul in Galatians 4 specifically says that a specific passage in scripture was speaking allegorically. Unlike, you, he didn't pull the allegory out of his nether regions.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

It's like owning a 72 inch 4K digital TV. I have a good grasp of how it works, what a pixel is, how the cable connection works, etc., but most of the time I just relax and enjoy the show.

I'm not surprised that you would compare your life to a passive couch 'tater.

To what should I liken you? How 'bout to a dead fish who can only go with the flow of the stream, whereas live fish can go with or swim against it?

Enjoy your Sleep of Death.

[hcap]

The Mustard Seed and birds...........

Language of the birds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds

In Indo-European religion, the behavior of birds has long been used for the purposes of divination by augurs. According to a suggestion by Walter Burkert, these customs may have their roots in the Paleolithic when, during the Ice Age, early humans looked for carrion by observing scavenging birds. The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC.

Birds are symbolic in many religious traditions. In the Jerusalem Talmud, Solomon's proverbial wisdom was due to his being granted understanding of the language of birds by God.

In Egyptian Arabic, hieroglyphic writing is called "the alphabet of the birds.
In The Conference of the Birds is a Persian poem by Sufi poet Farid ud-Din Attar, commonly known as Attar of Nishapur. The title is taken directly from the Qur’an, 27:16, where Sulayman (Solomon) and Dāwūd (David) are said to have been taught the language, or speech, of the birds (manṭiq al-ṭayr).

So Box, in the parable of the mustard seed,

Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Who and what are these "birds of the air"
Are the birds literally birds?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And Paul in Galatians 4 specifically says that a specific passage in scripture was speaking allegorically. Unlike, you, he didn't pull the allegory out of his nether regionsn

So, now you admit there are allegories in the bible, which is not what you have saying until this moment.

Now if you can only grasp your god is not murdering children and infants, that interpretation is total literal bullshit, and killing the "first born" may refer to eliminating something very different.

Can you?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

The Mustard Seed and birds...........

Language of the birds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds

In Indo-European religion, the behavior of birds has long been used for the purposes of divination by augurs. According to a suggestion by Walter Burkert, these customs may have their roots in the Paleolithic when, during the Ice Age, early humans looked for carrion by observing scavenging birds. The Proto-Indo-Europeans likely lived during the late Neolithic, or roughly the 4th millennium BC.

Birds are symbolic in many religious traditions. In the Jerusalem Talmud, Solomon's proverbial wisdom was due to his being granted understanding of the language of birds by God.

In Egyptian Arabic, hieroglyphic writing is called "the alphabet of the birds.
In The Conference of the Birds is a Persian poem by Sufi poet Farid ud-Din Attar, commonly known as Attar of Nishapur. The title is taken directly from the Qur’an, 27:16, where Sulayman (Solomon) and Dāwūd (David) are said to have been taught the language, or speech, of the birds (manṭiq al-ṭayr).

So Box, in the parable of the mustard seed,

Who and what are these "birds of the air"
Are the birds literally birds?

Who or what do YOU think the "birds of the air" are? You're the allegory expert, so you tell us.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Who or what do YOU think the "birds of the air" are? You're the allegory expert, so you tell us.

The birds are the ways of higher understanding. The Suifis are at the mystical core of Islam. they claim a shared heritage with mystical elements of Judaism and Christianity.....

Equating the human soul with a bird is found in myth and mystical literature all over the world. From Hallaj to Sanai and Rumi, Persian mystical poetry has used the symbol of Bird, beautifully. The human soul, like a bird can choose to remain caged in this perishable world or fly towards Liberation. The Birds’ Conversation”, also known as “The Conference of the Birds”. by Fariduddin “Attar” , is considered by many as the greatest of the Mathnavi writers of Persian mystical poetry after Rumi

The Conference of the Birds” revolves around the decision of the birds of the world to embark on a journey to seek out their king, the Simurgh. Finally in the valley of Poverty and Annihilation, the thirsty birds who undertook the painful journey in the search of Simurgh, realize that they themselves are the Simurgh.

The mustard seed is an allegory for the germination of a process within, that leads to a more sophisticated awareness in religious terms, possibly connecting the "soul" back to it's source.

However many religions begin as a seed among humans. The process within is an image of how a religious movement may grow, and untimely how the human race as a whole may grow. A tree is a fractal, a religions symbol containing many levels, leafs, twigs and branches.

All images of each other nested together

As above so below. The "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" also repeat on different levels

The Allegorical interpretive tradition often opens boundaries.
A knowledge of many tradition helps

The Soul – Bird in Persian Sufi Literature
https://epages.wordpress.com/2012/03...-by-rupa-abdi/

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

How did my remark about God's historic dealings with Jews make me (or other Gentiles) superior to Jews!?

(1)There is no evidence that any god exists.
(2)It's not historic, it's fiction.
(3)It doesn't make you superior. You think you're superior and you use that as an excuse to make the remark.

From M-W.
Definition of anti-Semitism : hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.

Definition of Ku Klux Klan 2 : a 20th century secret fraternal group held to confine its membership to American-born white Christians.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

(1)There is no evidence that any god exists.
(2)It's not historic, it's fiction.
(3)It doesn't make you superior. You think you're superior and you use that as an excuse to make the remark.

From M-W.
Definition of anti-Semitism : hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group.

Definition of Ku Klux Klan 2 : a 20th century secret fraternal group held to confine its membership to American-born white Christians.

My remark was not hostile or discriminatory. Just stating the facts, ma'am.

And just because you don't believe the bible doesn't make the events therein fictional.

God came down very hard on the Jews on three historic occasions for breaking his covenant: The Assyrian captivity, the Babylonian Captivity and the Diaspora in 70 A.D.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

The birds are the ways of higher understanding. The Suifis are at the mystical core of Islam. they claim a shared heritage with mystical elements of Judaism and Christianity.....


The mustard seed is an allegory for the germination of a process within, that leads to a more sophisticated awareness in religious terms, possibly connecting the "soul" back to it's source.

However many religions begin as a seed among humans. The process within is an image of how a religious movement may grow, and untimely how the human race as a whole may grow. A tree is a fractal, a religions symbol containing many levels, leafs, twigs and branches.

All images of each other nested together

As above so below. The "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" also repeat on different levels

The Allegorical interpretive tradition often opens boundaries.
A knowledge of many tradition helps

The Soul – Bird in Persian Sufi Literature
https://epages.wordpress.com/2012/03...-by-rupa-abdi/

Now...for the biblical interpretation:

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-mustard-seed.html

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Now...for the biblical interpretation:

https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-mustard-seed.html

I am familiar with the standard interpretation. It is OK, as far as it goes. However it limits growth, a major theme, to a one religious movement, Christianity, which is only one aspect of a multi level process of growth and one religion among many.

From your link...

So, the picture painted in the Parable of the Mustard Seed by Jesus is of the humble beginnings of the church experiencing an explosive rate of growth. It grows large and becomes a source of food, rest, and shelter, for both believers and false professing individuals that seek to consume or take advantage of its benefits while residing or mixing among what was produced by the seed (1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:7; 2 Corinthians 11:13; Galatians 1:7). In other words, Jesus predicts that, while the church will grow extremely large from just a small start, it will not remain pure. While this is not a condemnation of the "bigness" of modern Christianity, it does show us the greatest burden that comes with it. The Parable of the Mustard Seed is both a prediction and a warning. May we listen to its message.


It leaves out the level below, the most important and accessible aspect, one individuals spiritual growth, and the level above, unfortunately the least likely, all of humanity.

Which is why a true allegorical interpretation is more expansive. That is why I suggested expanding your literal view of Christianity to include a larger scope. The lager does not necessarily invalidate the narrower.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I am familiar with the standard interpretation. It is OK, as far as it goes. However it limits growth, a major theme, to a one religious movement, Christianity, which is only one aspect of a multi level process of growth and one religion among many.

From your link...

So, the picture painted in the Parable of the Mustard Seed by Jesus is of the humble beginnings of the church experiencing an explosive rate of growth. It grows large and becomes a source of food, rest, and shelter, for both believers and false professing individuals that seek to consume or take advantage of its benefits while residing or mixing among what was produced by the seed (1 Corinthians 5:1; 6:7; 2 Corinthians 11:13; Galatians 1:7). In other words, Jesus predicts that, while the church will grow extremely large from just a small start, it will not remain pure. While this is not a condemnation of the "bigness" of modern Christianity, it does show us the greatest burden that comes with it. The Parable of the Mustard Seed is both a prediction and a warning. May we listen to its message.


It leaves out the level below, the most important and accessible aspect, one individuals spiritual growth, and the level above, unfortunately the least likely, all of humanity.

Which is why a true allegorical interpretation is more expansive. That is why I suggested expanding your literal view of Christianity to include a larger scope. The lager does not necessarily invalidate the narrower.

Nothing was left out. There are two distinct aspects to the Kingdom of God/Heaven: The Now (the unseen, spiritual) and the Not Yet (the future, realized visible kingdom). Jesus is King in this Kingdom and his reign and lordship in his people's heart occurs when a person is born again by the Holy Spirit, at which time the Spirit literally indwells every believer and the sanctification (growth) process ensues immediately.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And just because you don't believe the bible doesn't make the events therein fictional.

And just because you believe the bible doesn't make the events therein historical.

Originally Posted by boxcar

God came down very hard on the Jews on three historic occasions for breaking his covenant: The Assyrian captivity, the Babylonian Captivity and the Diaspora in 70 A.D.

You left out the holocaust.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

And just because you believe the bible doesn't make the events therein historical.

Which is your problem.

You left out the holocaust.

On purpose. The holocaust was not predicted in the bible, but the three historical events I cited are.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The holocaust was not predicted in the bible, but the three historical events I cited are.

Really? More than likely backfitted.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Really? More than likely backfitted.

Thanks for the predictable yawner.