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Old 11-14-2010, 06:37 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterTriangle
And everyone who knows how the track played on SAT, and what the consistency of the track was, knew that it would not be playing to her kind of running style, hence: it is precisely a testimony to Zen's greatness that she GOT a head behind Blame (horse-for-the-course) at the finish line....

and ahead of all those other dirt horses who should have been there, but weren't...(and didn't have any excuses).
Oh, now it was the track...it never ends. That was a biased track? If so, Dakota Phone must be a top 5 all time miler. The pace was brutal, he closed, and actually got up. What a champion.
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:38 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterTriangle
I can't blame a jockey for not being able to change a horse's running style at the last minute, "during" a big race.

As a matter of fact, I'm against drastically altering a horse's running style, period.... unless there is something mechanically / musculoskeletally incorrect in the first place that would vastly hinder their career on the track, or cause them to come to harm. And that would happen very early on in their career, not the end of it.
I agree, a jockey should not try to alter a horse's running style. However, I do think Smith could have kept her in closer contact with the second pack of horses -- rather than 20 lengths behind.

He had her 10 lengths behind last year in the BC Classic. He had her 20 lengths behind this year. He could have urged her closer to the pack early in the race without changing her come from behind style. In my opinion, she would not have had as much work to do to try to catch Blame who had gotten the lead at the top of the stretch.

Again, this is all a matter of opinion, and you could very well be right.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:01 PM   #108
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It's been a week......7 days of postmortem trying to put salve in the wound is enough.......

Get over it....no matter how valiant in defeat...... she lost.............
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:36 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swetyejohn
He had her 10 lengths behind last year in the BC Classic. He had her 20 lengths behind this year.
He? Watchmaker, Beyer........or did you mean .......



.......the jockey?



The BCC was the last race of the weekend, by which time everyone had plenty of notice on the horse-for-the-course angle.

The fact that Zenyatta was the very opposite of horse for the course is what has made her so admired in defeat.

The enormity of what she accomplished is precisely what has caused opinion of her to rise exponentially. So many predicted her loss based on the fact that she had so much going against her....that closers don't remain undefeated, etc. Yet, she did what she did, with mud clods flying in her face, on a surface she didn't like.

And didn't lose by 5, 10, or 15 lengths.

(If you wanted to go back and see some hilarious things that were said before the race it sort of makes you wonder why only Zenyatta fans are called *silly* for some of the stuff they say. )

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ
Oh, now it was the track...it never ends. That was a biased track?
I did not use the term biased. Look again.

CDX, based on surface, consistency, or Zen's lack of early speed and running style----did not favor Zenyatta---who thought it did? How many closers are undeafeated?

But so much for "avoiding places you might not win" complaints, huh?

Losing a race is not so terrible after all. For her, it certainly hasn't been, as I said above.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:53 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by WinterTriangle
Losing a race is not so terrible after all. For her, it certainly hasn't been, as I said above.
Nope, which is exactly what many of us have been saying all along. Unfortunately, some aren't handling it very well. As I said, way too many excuses for a horse that doesn't need one.

Obviously the connections would have been a laughing stock if they avoided this race after the talk all year. Bravo for actually showing up though. I'm just sad we didn't get to see her in more competitive races which is all I've asked for this year.

Call me jaded, but I just don't get excited at horses beating tomato cans at 1 to 20 odds.

Last edited by cj; 11-14-2010 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:06 PM   #111
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What is CDX? The stock market abbreviation? A new railroad?
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Old 11-14-2010, 10:15 PM   #112
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You say tomoto I say tomato

For the record, in her career Zenyatta defeated a total of 21 GR1 winners, 9 of which were multiple GR1 winners, and she also defeated 5 CHAMPIONS.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:59 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRalph
It's been a week......7 days of postmortem trying to put salve in the wound is enough.......

Get over it....no matter how valiant in defeat...... she lost.............
Well said Ralph. It's been 20 yrs since the Buffalo Bills lost Super Bowl 25 to the Giants. We in Buffalo tore ourselves up with how we knew we were better than NY, how unfair to steamroll through the playoffs and then lose on a missed field goal, woulda, coulda, shoulda, etc, etc. But guess what? 20 yrs later, when I look in the record books.....the Giants won.....the Bills lost. And 20 yrs from now, Blame will have won the 2010 BCC and Zenyatta lost. Save yourselves the aggravation. Trust me, I know.
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Old 11-15-2010, 01:43 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swetyejohn
Maybe "slow" wasn't the right description. It was certainly slower than the best timed BC Classics.

10 of the last 16 KY Derbys have been run faster than the 2010 Breeders' Cup Classic. The Classic is supposed to be for the best 10 furlong horses in the world. I would expect it to be run faster than the Derby 6 times in 16.

I still agree with Mike Smith -- Zenyatta losing the Classic was the fault of the jockey. BUT -- the thing we'll never know is if any other jockey could have done any better.
Perhaps the horses in this year's renewal just weren't as good as you thought them to be. The speed figures (curse those damn tools of the DEVIL) certainly seem to bear this out...

Blame is no world beater in terms of history...so what does that make Zenyatta?
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Old 11-15-2010, 01:49 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterTriangle
And everyone who knows how the track played on SAT, and what the consistency of the track was, knew that it would not be playing to her kind of running style, hence: it is precisely a testimony to Zen's greatness that she GOT a head behind Blame (horse-for-the-course) at the finish line....

and ahead of all those other dirt horses who should have been there, but weren't...(and didn't have any excuses).
Wow.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:03 AM   #116
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Blame vs Onion

"Blame is no world beater in terms of history...so what does that make Zenyatta?"

This is similar to what Beyer said in his recent column, degrading Zenyatta's place in history because she lost to Blame. Here is what Beyer wrote:

"Before Saturday, Zenyatta's admirers argued that she was one of the all-time great racing talents of either sex. The Classic brought her abilities into perspective. She's as good as Blame, and few people would rank Blame among the immortals of the turf."

But it's unfair to quantify Zenyatta's place in history, or overall class, based on the fact that she lost to Blame.

Secretariat lost to horses that were far inferior to Blame, so are we to take Secretariats defeats and say, gee, how good could he have really been, he lost to Onion?

Man O War lost one race, to Upset. Again, you can't say that Man O War wasn't one of the all time greats because he lost one race to a horse that wasn't a great horse.

As for Blame, since he is retiring after only 13 starts, and has 9 wins, including wins over Zenyatta and Quality Road, it's hard to say just how good he is because they are simply retiring him too soon. If Blame came back next year and had another year like he did this year he certainly would go down in history as a great horse.

People who think that speed figures are the measure of greatness should have a ton of respect for Blame because he beat Quality Road both times he faced him. Not long ago, Beyer and other speed handicappers were gushing over Quality Road after he ran a 121 Beyer in the Donn. Yet Blame and Zenyatta proved that they are clearly better horses than Quality Road.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:20 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
"Blame is no world beater in terms of history...so what does that make Zenyatta?"

This is similar to what Beyer said in his recent column, degrading Zenyatta's place in history because she lost to Blame. Here is what Beyer wrote:

"Before Saturday, Zenyatta's admirers argued that she was one of the all-time great racing talents of either sex. The Classic brought her abilities into perspective. She's as good as Blame, and few people would rank Blame among the immortals of the turf."

But it's unfair to quantify Zenyatta's place in history, or overall class, based on the fact that she lost to Blame.

Secretariat lost to horses that were far inferior to Blame, so are we to take Secretariats defeats and say, gee, how good could he have really been, he lost to Onion?

Man O War lost one race, to Upset. Again, you can't say that Man O War wasn't one of the all time greats because he lost one race to a horse that wasn't a great horse.

As for Blame, since he is retiring after only 13 starts, and has 9 wins, including wins over Zenyatta and Quality Road, it's hard to say just how good he is because they are simply retiring him too soon. If Blame came back next year and had another year like he did this year he certainly would go down in history as a great horse.

People who think that speed figures are the measure of greatness should have a ton of respect for Blame because he beat Quality Road both times he faced him. Not long ago, Beyer and other speed handicappers were gushing over Quality Road after he ran a 121 Beyer in the Donn. Yet Blame and Zenyatta proved that they are clearly better horses than Quality Road.
I'm sorry? "It's hard to say just how good" Blame is for beating Zenyatta, but Zenyatta is one of the greatest ever because she was beating mid-level competitors for the past two years in her 'regular season' campaigns?

There's a term for this: cognitive dissonance.
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Old 11-15-2010, 08:34 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceBored
I'm sorry? "It's hard to say just how good" Blame is for beating Zenyatta, but Zenyatta is one of the greatest ever because she was beating mid-level competitors for the past two years in her 'regular season' campaigns?

There's a term for this: cognitive dissonance.
In her career, Zenyatta defeated 21 GR1 winners, 9 of which were multiple GR1 winners, and 5 horses that were Champions. That is not mid-level competition.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:42 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by pandy
In her career, Zenyatta defeated 21 GR1 winners, 9 of which were multiple GR1 winners, and 5 horses that were Champions. That is not mid-level competition.
I said her 2009 and 2010 'regular season,' i.e. non-BC, campaigns were against mid-level competition. Let's see if your rejoinder is on point.

How many G1 winners and champions did Zenyatta beat in non-BC competition over the past two years (that would be 2009 and 2010). Answer: 1 G1 winner and 0 champions.

So, your reply was non-responsive. We've established that she is not undefeatable. Was the length of her win streak inflated by the softness of her competition in 9 of the 11 races she's run over the past two years? We'll never know for sure, but it's a legitmate question and one that must bear on her place in the pantheon of top horses.

Last edited by FenceBored; 11-15-2010 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 11-15-2010, 11:47 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceBored
There's a term for this: cognitive dissonance.
This is, without question, the single most appropriate descriptor for this whole side show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandy
In her career, Zenyatta defeated 21 GR1 winners, 9 of which were multiple GR1 winners, and 5 horses that were Champions. That is not mid-level competition.
The more ya say it, the more it means! Speaking of which, in add'n to what Fence just wrote: I'm reasonably sure Blame beat 14 GR1 winners - that's seven less than Zen's 21 - in 2010. Anyone have the number for Blame's 2009 (and that li'l bit of '08, if applicable)?

A "horse of the century" that has beaten 21 G1 winners in her entire career? Yowza. But see, that's the whole darned point (for Blame and Zenyatta alike): these aren't inimitable world-beaters; they're good horses that we should appreciate for exactly what they are...good horses. Not claimers or big ol' stoopid-heads, nor mega-greatness made manifest...good horses. Just happens that one makes people LOSE THEIR EFFIN' MINDS.

She's less the Aretha Franklin of the equine world than she is the Lady Gaga. At least she looks good on stage.

Last edited by BluegrassProf; 11-15-2010 at 11:49 AM.
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