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Old 08-18-2014, 01:04 PM   #256
traynor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox
I'm not going to argue the point any further.
Believe what you want.
He was not a Certified or Registered Psychologist with any State Board..
He was never a member of the American Psychological Association.
If Quinn referred to Sartin as being a psychologist, that doesn't mean that Sartin really was one. It is doubtful that Quinn would run around checking out his credentials.
Barry Meadow exposed the fraudulent representation of his credentials.
Sartin could have sued him for libel if he was wrong. Sartin didn't sue.

With respect to saying it was not your choice or your argument, you did say:
"As a psychologist, he understood that people who have essentially been playing at something for most of their experience with it have the most difficulty "working" at it."

You injected your own beliefs into that comment, and said that Sartin would have understood that. Who knows if he would have agreed with you or not?

Secondly, the RDSS people on this board don't particularly care if Sartin was a genuine psychologist, a plumber, bus driver or a brain surgeon.
They are more interested in the ideas about horse racing that he was promoting- energy distribution and so on - many of which were "borrowed" from Huey Mahl.
In that regard, Sartin had some good ideas.
Incorrect. My comments were based on Sartin's writings, and presentations made by Sartin at various seminars.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:50 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by traynor
Incorrect. My comments were based on Sartin's writings, and presentations made by Sartin at various seminars.
Whatever you say.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:52 PM   #258
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One thing about Sartin has peaked my interest:

He was showered with accolades in Quinn's book The Best of Thoroughbred Handicapping...but nary a mention of him in that book's revised edition, 17 years later...
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Old 08-18-2014, 03:36 PM   #259
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?

Quote:
Originally Posted by traynor
Incorrect. My comments were based on Sartin's writings, and presentations made by Sartin at various seminars.
You mean it is correct that you swallowed all Sartin's claims.
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Old 08-18-2014, 04:39 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lansdale
You mean it is correct that you swallowed all Sartin's claims.
Incorrect. I reiterated comments made by Sartin in regard to the inability of some people to effectively use techniques that others seemed able to use and do quite well, and what he believed to be the cause of that inability.

Actually, I was in early enough to miss most of the cult groupthink that followed.
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Old 08-18-2014, 04:45 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
One thing about Sartin has peaked my interest:

He was showered with accolades in Quinn's book The Best of Thoroughbred Handicapping...but nary a mention of him in that book's revised edition, 17 years later...
It was profitable. Anyone remember Barry Meadow's association with the Sartin group?

BTW, in the citation listed above, did Quinn ever refer to Sartin as a "psychologist"?

And as long as we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin stuck in the cap of a jockey at Saratoga, you probably mean "piqued." Sounds the same, spelled differently.
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Old 08-18-2014, 04:52 PM   #262
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Anyone actually remember the John Meyer/Sartin ripoff debate who was there (as opposed to reading about, hearing about, googling about, or reiterating second- or third-hand he say/she say many years after the fact)?
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Old 08-18-2014, 05:10 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by traynor
And as long as we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin stuck in the cap of a jockey at Saratoga, you probably mean "piqued." Sounds the same, spelled differently.
I wouldn't use a French word to save my life. And I couldn't care less about the accepted laws of grammar; I use the words which I feel best describe what I mean to say.

And I meant "bringing my interest to a PEAK".
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Last edited by thaskalos; 08-18-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 08-19-2014, 01:05 AM   #264
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Well, this thread took 17 pages and four years to get to the point.

Patrick has a gambling problem. Among other issues.
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Old 08-19-2014, 01:14 AM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
I wouldn't use a French word to save my life. And I couldn't care less about the accepted laws of grammar; I use the words which I feel best describe what I mean to say.

And I meant "bringing my interest to a PEAK".
Of course you did. I should have known that. My error. C'est la vie.
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Old 08-19-2014, 01:19 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Hoofless_Wonder
Well, this thread took 17 pages and four years to get to the point.

Patrick has a gambling problem. Among other issues.
The REAL problem is Patrick's failure to realize that "professional horseplaying" is a longshot even under IDEAL conditions. It becomes a virtual IMPOSSIBILITY when a person is operating under great financial strain.

When you have no bankroll, no savings, no job, and no stable place of residence...then the racetrack should be the furthest thing from your mind.
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Old 08-19-2014, 01:25 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traynor
Of course you did. I should have known that. My error. C'est la vie.
On second thought...I appreciate the grammar lesson. English is a second language to me...and perhaps I should make a greater effort to improve.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:52 AM   #268
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Interesting topic (Doctor Sartin), with very little to be gained.

I recall when he told me personally about the now-famous truck drivers. It was on one of our many Saturday night telephone conversations.

He said that when he said "truck drivers" he did not literally mean they all drove truck. He was referring to the mentality. (No offense meant to PK or others.) What he meant was that they were not typically highly-educated.

Later on he told me (on another Saturday night) that the original purpose of them combining their efforts was simply to stop them from gambling during the treatment.

Was Howard a practicing psychologist? Probably not.

Was he an original thinker? Absolutely.

Did he use other peoples' ideas and concepts? Of course he did. Just like everyone else does, in any field you can imagine, from science to finance.

Regarding Howard and Huey: He and Howard were cut from the same cloth. They were both sharp thinkers; high IQs. But there were differences. Huey was seriously all about the gambling, while Howard was more about the business and the "subtle hustle." To my knowledge, Howard never made a serious wager.

When it came to producing original ways to combine ideas, Howard and Huey were both full powerful thinkers. (Understand that I first met Huey in 1977, a year before I even had an interest in horse racing and a full 10 years before I met Howard.)

Both Huey and Howard were self-educated, I believe. Howard being the one who "sold" his education far beyond its true level. He even looked the part of college professor, while Huey looked like the cigar-smoking, back room card player type; a runyonesque character.

Lest anyone think to sell Sartin's thinking capabilities short... sure, he took other peoples' ideas and ran with them... but he ran a lot farther than they did. That's why, in the horse racing world, anyway, Sartin is a household name and I can never remember the other guy's name.

As I said, Howard and Huey were cut from the same cloth. They really were out-of-the-box thinkers.

When I released my first commercial software product in 1990, ThoroBrain, Howard got me to send Huey a copy. As I recall, after he started using it, he liked it so much that he INSISTED on paying for it! In fact, he purchase a couple more licenses.

At the time, he had an assistant named Robby. (It has haunted me for years that I can not remember his last name.)

Huey did not use TBrain to handicap horses! He had far more interest in Sports Betting. Huey turned the Neural Network in TBrain into a football handicapping program!

TBrain came with slots for 10 user-defined factors. Huey devised the idea that they could create 2-horse races for each game, punching football factors into each of the 10 slots. Robby was his data entry clerk.

One time I visited him in Las Vegas. He had an office - on or near Industrial, I think, but I could be confusing that with the old Sports Form office.

I was amazed to walk in and find 4 systems running ThoroBrain, crunching football games. He said that they were working on baseball and basketball as well.

Sorry this rambled. Guess I am getting old and melancholic.

Summary: Yes, there was a lot of smoke-and-mirrors with Howard. He was a showman, a thinker, a character, and full of subtle hustle. But you've got to give the guy credit for birthing and parenting an approach that has had more impact on handicappers over the last 30 years than any other.

His Methodology also spawned many successful authors and teachers.

None of those other guys - including Huey, Mitchell, Quirin - did that.

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 08-19-2014 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:40 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
Interesting topic (Doctor Sartin), with very little to be gained.

I recall when he told me personally about the now-famous truck drivers. It was on one of our many Saturday night telephone conversations.

He said that when he said "truck drivers" he did not literally mean they all drove truck. He was referring to the mentality. (No offense meant to PK or others.) What he meant was that they were not typically highly-educated.

Later on he told me (on another Saturday night) that the original purpose of them combining their efforts was simply to stop them from gambling during the treatment.

Was Howard a practicing psychologist? Probably not.

Was he an original thinker? Absolutely.

Did he use other peoples' ideas and concepts? Of course he did. Just like everyone else does, in any field you can imagine, from science to finance.

Regarding Howard and Huey: He and Howard were cut from the same cloth. They were both sharp thinkers; high IQs. But there were differences. Huey was seriously all about the gambling, while Howard was more about the business and the "subtle hustle." To my knowledge, Howard never made a serious wager.

When it came to producing original ways to combine ideas, Howard and Huey were both full powerful thinkers. (Understand that I first met Huey in 1977, a year before I even had an interest in horse racing and a full 10 years before I met Howard.)

Both Huey and Howard were self-educated, I believe. Howard being the one who "sold" his education far beyond its true level. He even looked the part of college professor, while Huey looked like the cigar-smoking, back room card player type; a runyonesque character.

Lest anyone think to sell Sartin's thinking capabilities short... sure, he took other peoples' ideas and ran with them... but he ran a lot farther than they did. That's why, in the horse racing world, anyway, Sartin is a household name and I can never remember the other guy's name.

As I said, Howard and Huey were cut from the same cloth. They really were out-of-the-box thinkers.

When I released my first commercial software product in 1990, ThoroBrain, Howard got me to send Huey a copy. As I recall, after he started using it, he liked it so much that he INSISTED on paying for it! In fact, he purchase a couple more licenses.

At the time, he had an assistant named Robby. (It has haunted me for years that I can not remember his last name.)

Huey did not use TBrain to handicap horses! He had far more interest in Sports Betting. Huey turned the Neural Network in TBrain into a football handicapping program!

TBrain came with slots for 10 user-defined factors. Huey devised the idea that they could create 2-horse races for each game, punching football factors into each of the 10 slots. Robby was his data entry clerk.

One time I visited him in Las Vegas. He had an office - on or near Industrial, I think, but I could be confusing that with the old Sports Form office.

I was amazed to walk in and find 4 systems running ThoroBrain, crunching football games. He said that they were working on baseball and basketball as well.

Sorry this rambled. Guess I am getting old and melancholic.

Summary: Yes, there was a lot of smoke-and-mirrors with Howard. He was a showman, a thinker, a character, and full of subtle hustle. But you've got to give the guy credit for birthing and parenting an approach that has had more impact on handicappers over the last 30 years than any other.

His Methodology also spawned many successful authors and teachers.

None of those other guys - including Huey, Mitchell, Quirin - did that.
One of the amazing things about Sartin is the number of people who believed he was just selling computer software apps. As he stated on numerous occasions, the apps were intended primarily to bolster the self-confidence of the users--NOT to pick horses. Specifically, the emphasis on "finding the true contenders" and "picking the proper pace lines" was designed to essentially select the winner first, THEN crunch the numbers. That was the "Sartin Methodology"--not the litle toy apps.

Sartin believed that the apps--pirated, copied, ripped-off, or otherwise--were little more than the equivalent of training wheels on a child's bicycle--useful for complete novices, but not really necessary. In fact, I used that simile in a comment to PRN published--with Sartin's approval and agreement--several years before Sartin's "yellow manual" was distributed at Expo '84.

Unfortunately, many missed the intent and misused the apps. That is, they failed to develop the initial skills in prequalification and comparison needed to "make the apps work"--and then complained that they didn't work. Others, including those with little or no previous "knowledge" of horse racing or handicapping, did very well regardless of which app they used.
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Old 08-19-2014, 11:26 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traynor
Unfortunately, many missed the intent and misused the apps. That is, they failed to develop the initial skills in prequalification and comparison needed to "make the apps work"--and then complained that they didn't work. Others, including those with little or no previous "knowledge" of horse racing or handicapping, did very well regardless of which app they used.
Jim the "Hat" Bradshaw being the superlative example.
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