Kentucky Downs raising takeout

[TBredSpotPlayer]

DRF's Matt Hegarty asks Kentucky Downs vice-president Ted Nicholson about the reason for raising takeout from 14 to 15% and his response is to put part of the blame on HISA.

Just great, another excuse to gauge the recreational horseplayer, racing's MOST IMPORTANT entity (if only they realized it).

Also Mr. Nicholson, in response to a question about the heavily subsidized (through rebates and computerized tote access) CAW player accounts, says that "I'm not privy to what the ADWs do with their customers".

To me this represents a big aspect of the problem racing has with the declining participation of recreational betters, at the expense of professional (i.e. "business") bettors. The tracks don't take enough responsibility for how their product (the actual horse races) are being marketed and sold.

With their heads continually buried in the sand, eventually the incoming tide may drown the entire great game of thoroughbred racing and handicapping.

Very disappointing.

https://www.drf.com/news/interview-t...kentucky-downs

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by TBredSpotPlayer

DRF's Matt Hegarty asks Kentucky Downs vice-president Ted Nicholson about the reason for raising takeout from 14 to 15% and his response is to put part of the blame on HISA.

Just great, another excuse to gauge the recreational horseplayer, racing's MOST IMPORTANT entity (if only they realized it).

Also Mr. Nicholson, in response to a question about the heavily subsidized (through rebates and computerized tote access) CAW player accounts, says that "I'm not privy to what the ADWs do with their customers".

To me this represents a big aspect of the problem racing has with the declining participation of recreational betters, at the expense of professional (i.e. "business") bettors. The tracks don't take enough responsibility for how their product (the actual horse races) are being marketed and sold.

With their heads continually buried in the sand, eventually the incoming tide may drown the entire great game of thoroughbred racing and handicapping.

Very disappointing.

https://www.drf.com/news/interview-t...kentucky-downs

That is clueless on so many levels I can barely figure out where to start.


"The tracks" do not have a "product" (in case you've yet to figure that out).


The people over there, in those barns... they're the ones with the product, and they're the ones putting on the show.


The comical part is that to some extent, those same people over there have approved nearly everything that goes on. Horsemen very clearly don't take enough responsibility for how their "product" is being (pimped, you mean).


The "recreational horseplayer" becomes less significant by the minute. He/she still has the potential for being the 'most important' element in the picture, but it simply isn't accurate in 2023. Maybe it was, in 1978.


You probably need a better gauge, if that's what you think.


(should we guess that you fancy yourself a "recreational horseplayer" ??)

[lamboguy]

i like betting Mountaineer and try to support their product.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

......"The tracks" do not have a "product" (in case you've yet to figure that out).

The people over there, in those barns... they're the ones with the product, and they're the ones putting on the show....

The track's product is the races they produce for people to bet on.



Is a movie a product or just the actors?


Does a store have products or is it just farmers who grow and produce the ingredients that are processed and packaged for the stores?

[TBredSpotPlayer]

I meant to type gouge, as in overcharge or swindle.

Recreational horseplayers are very important to the prosperity of the game, regardless of whether or not the industry comprehends their significance.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by TBredSpotPlayer

I meant to type gouge, as in overcharge or swindle.

Recreational horseplayers are very important to the prosperity of the game, regardless of whether or not the industry comprehends their significance.

You are 100% correct. Very ignorant group of people call the shots for this industry and as a result this industry is fast approaching the life support stage, despite the fact that a lot of their revenue base comes from "partnerships" aka charity.

For you as a recreational bettor you have basically 3 options.

1) Get rebates yourself. (they won't be as high as the Caw gets) but some are able to make money losing about 10% on every dollar they bet no matter what the take out is. (thus a 15% wps pool would get a 5% rebate and a 24% takeout trifecta pool would get about a 14% rebate......) You have to live in a state that enables you to do this.

2) Donate to cause. Be in the recreational gambler class that can lose as much as 28% on many exotic pools but you take one for team horse player. You see you don't bet horses to win money, you bet horses for "entertainment". Losing 20% to 30% on the dollar is typical for these players and if you are amongst the elite in this group and only lose 10% on the dollar, you get bragging rights.

3) You write this industry a letter (the tracks that you normally play) and tell them that despite long supporting this industry as a recreational horse player, you are done. You cannot support an industry that has continued to treat you like horse****. You join the large number of horse players that have already exited the building. You can gravitate more towards tournaments and that type of stuff. It's not my thing, but it seems as if others on this site feel they have a better chance with them.


I would love to tell you that the letter you write on the way out the door will make a difference, but it won't.

[Poindexter]

Just to elaborate a little further. The price gouging mentioned is done systematically with rebates (giving the biggest bettors the preferential and competitive takeout rates) while the laymen always pays an unreasonable takeout rate. The effects of this is amplified because of pari-mutuel betting. So if 30% of their exotic pools is being bet by caw and other advantage rebated bettors that might lose 5% on the dollar only to have rebates push them into the positive roi category, that means the other 70% of the pools is responsible for most of the takeout. So in a million dollar exotic pool at Kentucky downs, 300 k bet by caw, 700 k bet by rest. Total takeout is $200,000. Caw loses $15,000 on their share the rest lose $185,000 on their share. The public just went from a 20% takeout to a 26.4% takeout in the exotic pools. The non rebated bettor has virtually no chance of overcoming that 26.4% takeout long run.

But this is a problem caused by rebates (and of course the other advantages the Caw has-betting last, sophisticated modeling, which was a can of worms opened up by the industry when they went to rebating in the first place). So when Kentucky downs says they are raising takeout 1%, in the grand scheme of things, big deal. If they changed the takeout in the exotic pools 1 % the other direction instead, nothing I just stated in the last paragraph changes much. The caw gets the best of it and the public loses a little less but they still have no chance to win long term. So as long as rebates are on the table and I am 100% convinced they always will be, the minority betting class, known as the recreational bettor is completely screwed, thus the reason for my last post.

Bottom line is there should be a lot more uproar about rebates than there is about Kentucky Downs or anybody else raising takeout 1 percent. My guess is that a lot of people who are vocal on the customer side of the business get rebates themselves so the system works for them. I am not even saying that is a bad thing. If people out there are making it betting this game as it is currently dealt, good on them. I do try to encourage bettors to support the tracks that do the right thing just to send the right message to the bean counters, but as this game continues to lose more and more public money, the only thing they can do and will do is raise takeout on the public. When the public is losing 26 to 28 % in exotic pools, wtf is the difference if they lose 1 or 2 % more (of course over time that 1 or 2% will become 3 or 4%.........because with a broken model there is nothing else the racing industry can do-feed the whales and gouge what is left of the masses).

I have continuously stated there is only one solution and this industry fails to even consider it. Everything and anything else is short run pr crap that does nothing to help the future of this game.

[PhantomOnTour]

Outrage over a 1% rise in takeout?

KD still has one of (if not the) lowest takeout rates in North America, full & competitive fields, and some top notch turf racing.

There are bigger fish to fry in this game besides this, but rage away if you must.

[cj]

Originally Posted by PhantomOnTour

Outrage over a 1% rise in takeout?

KD still has one of (if not the) lowest takeout rates in North America, full & competitive fields, and some top notch turf racing.

There are bigger fish to fry in this game besides this, but rage away if you must.

They are running a G3 Saturday for $2,000,000 but need more from horseplayers? Pay the HISA bill from that and run for 1.3 million. That seems like more than enough.

Also, why does a 7 day meet owe almost $700,000 for HISA? That makes no sense.

I don't play that track anyway so it isn't a decision for me, but I wouldn't out of principle if I usually did. It is a slap in the face to bettors.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by cj

They are running a G3 Saturday for $2,000,000 but need more from horseplayers? Pay the HISA bill from that and run for 1.3 million. That seems like more than enough.

Also, why does a 7 day meet owe almost $700,000 for HISA? That makes no sense.

I don't play that track anyway so it isn't a decision for me, but I wouldn't out of principle if I usually did. It is a slap in the face to bettors.

that one is a I mile TURF RACE, with not the best turf horses in the world running in it!

please, give me a xxxx break already with this nonsense.

[thaskalos]

I never understood what the fascination is with Kentucky Downs. I've always thought that this race meet is just a con. They run for 7 days so they can say that they are in the "horse racing business"...and this qualifies them to run their electronic races for the remaining 358 days of the year. Sure their purses are huge. But that's because they only have 7 days of expenses, while their income stream continues to flow for the entire year. A sweetheart of a deal...if you ask me.

[TBredSpotPlayer]

Now the Paulick Report is reporting this action.

https://paulickreport.com/horseplaye...et-hisa-costs/

I recall recently reading, at some website, a post by a horseman who was against HISA. One of his points was that the tracks would end up raising takeout to cover this new cost, which would further burden bettors and ultimately reduce the handle which horsemen depend on.

I personally am not against HISA, at least their goals to improve the game, but I didn't want to believe that the tracks would be so short-sighted to do what this man predicted.

Apparently no one will ever lose money betting against the myopic financial visions of race track management.

[classhandicapper]

Granted that HISA is an incremental expense that had to be made up elsewhere, but when you are tossing around 4 million dollars on one card for Grade 3 and listed level horses on top of 150k for MSW and more on ALW, it would be pretty easy to trim that back just a pinch over the meet and pay for HISA and other increases.

It's all nonsense.

They made a conscious decision to cover their incremental HISA and inflation related costs entirely out of the pockets of horse players instead where the real money is going.

[horses4courses]

Raise in takeout?
What about their purses?

(Expecting crickets)

[Onesome]

And this is why it's morally justified to use offshore books that don't contribute to the totes. A million purse increases cause of the slots but a takeout increase. F the industry in North America, hope it dies a quick death.