"Trainerspeak" on the record

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by clocker7

Just so there isn't misunderstanding, let me clarify.

Most horse racing participants are going about their business. They are in the majority. However, a noisy minority are very aggressive, and are trying to paint a picture for the public that is misleading. When I said "Too many people ..." that is what I meant.

But my main point was to congratulate delawaretrainer for patiently schooling those with less knowledge, but who are acting like they represent a greater sector than actually exists.

Thanks!

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

The backside, horsemen - owners and trainers - brought this all upon themselves. They get exactly whatever is coming to them.

If that means more regulation and more hassle and more hoops to jump through in the process, then too bad. This is what you get for being so damn cavalier throughout all these years, thinking you all run the show and you can basically get away with whatever you want.

The chickens are going to come home to roost one of these days...and it's not going to be pretty. But just remember, no horse player ever shot up a horse with questionable meds, and no horse player ever sold a horse to the killers.

Wow, I am a horseman and I take offense to this. I am not part of the problem yet you say horseman. I don't dump horses, give thyro l or do any of the things that are the real issues of the peta tape.

I've really disappointed that an administrator of a forum I enjoy would do that.

Do you know that thoroughbred horseman were part of the uniform medication reform that seriously curtails even therapeutic medication? The standardbred horseman have not accepted due to breed specific issues though. You probably don't know anything about this. We have taken all changes in stride, steroid regulation, third party LASIx administration, removal of adjunct bleeder medication, pre race exams, virtual elimination of clenbuterol, etc etc etc. and you know what? Nobody complained. As long as regulators create a level playing field, we want to play by the rules without getting our butts kicked by others doing things.. There are a couple guys at each track that people think are using meds not detectable post race. What can I do about it? Whine like a sore loser? Stop blaming horseman, I can't control other people

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Wow, I am a horseman and I take offense to this. I am not part of the problem yet you say horseman. I don't dump horses, give thyro l or do any of the things that are the real issues of the peta tape.

I've really disappointed that an administrator of a forum I enjoy would do that.

Do you know that thoroughbred horseman were part of the uniform medication reform that seriously curtails even therapeutic medication? The standardbred horseman have not accepted due to breed specific issues though. You probably don't know anything about this. We have taken all changes in stride, steroid regulation, third party LASIx administration, removal of adjunct bleeder medication, pre race exams, virtual elimination of clenbuterol, etc etc etc. and you know what? Nobody complained. As long as regulators create a level playing field, we want to play by the rules without getting our butts kicked by others doing things.. There are a couple guys at each track that people think are using meds not detectable post race. What can I do about it? Whine like a sore loser? Stop blaming horseman, I can't control other people

Do you train at Delaware Park, home of the 40% trainer? I don't think there is a bettor alive that thinks things going on there are on the up and up. I'm certainly not indicting you personally. I have no idea what you do and don't do. But in life you will always be lumped in with your peers when it comes to work.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

Wow, I am a horseman and I take offense to this. I am not part of the problem yet you say horseman. I don't dump horses, give thyro l or do any of the things that are the real issues of the peta tape.

I've really disappointed that an administrator of a forum I enjoy would do that.

Do you know that thoroughbred horseman were part of the uniform medication reform that seriously curtails even therapeutic medication? The standardbred horseman have not accepted due to breed specific issues though. You probably don't know anything about this. We have taken all changes in stride, steroid regulation, third party LASIx administration, removal of adjunct bleeder medication, pre race exams, virtual elimination of clenbuterol, etc etc etc. and you know what? Nobody complained. As long as regulators create a level playing field, we want to play by the rules without getting our butts kicked by others doing things.. There are a couple guys at each track that people think are using meds not detectable post race. What can I do about it? Whine like a sore loser? Stop blaming horseman, I can't control other people

Do you think that if a trainer who cheats with meds not detectable or does other reprehensible things to their horses to gain an edge, and they were a member of Pace Advantage and posting in this thread, do you think they would raise their hand and say "im guilty"? Or would they say "not me"?

No trainer that posts on here would ever admit they are part of the problem, but someone must be part of the problem, right? Now, not the ENTIRE problem, but at least a very small part of it.

What's the saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem?

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

I may be a reformer, but I'm a reformer that's sharp enough to make sure I'm providing links to DVM reports and data from vet school studies on the affects of thyroxine/thyroid concerns in HORSES, those that the discussion has related to.

Rather than providing links that pertain to thyroxine/thyroid concerns and questionable doping in HUMANS. In this case, 15 elite Olympic athletes, the practice, and the opinion of one physician in North America.

Yep. Bravo. But maybe try reading the links (details) before hitting submit. Its always good when troops call for backup.



So far, you've missed a lot of detail, counselor. So for this reason, my money? I wouldn't have you on retainer.

You make ZERO sense. Do you not get that I am addressing the challenges of regulating this. What the heck is your point? All I see is a bunch of over dramatic jibberish. What is the solution? Be specific. If you were writing the rules what would the rule be and how would they execute it? How would they quantify things post race to prove wrongdoing? I guarantee this has been talked about. My point in humans is that clearly in that article it is being used for performance enhancement and between physicians the diagnosis of hypothyroid is debatable and there is much more research in humans than horses.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Nobody is chasing utopia.

But just the same, the acceptance of anarchy won't be tolerated for very much longer.

Clearly you have not been exposed to just how regulated horseracing is. Do you know that I can be drug or alcohol tested at any time by the commission. And I'm not even in the race. Horses are tested prerace for blood gas randomly. I mean you're on the way up to post and a vet flies out of the test barn and pulls blood. People follow your horse from the race to the test barn. Post race tests can be run for an infinite number of substances. My barn can be searched at any time and so can my car or trailer. This happens all the time. Human athletes can do a lot of things that I would be banned for.

[Saratoga_Mike]

DT, the answer on thyroxine (sp?) abuse/overuse is easy.

You require the state vet to personally sign off on its use, in cases that actually merit its use (the criteria for usage should be determined by a group of objective vets - I'd probably select vets from top equine vet schools). There, problem solved.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

The link you provide makes it seem that's exactly what they are doing...enhancing rather than normalizing. This Doc Brown sees abnormality where other doctors do not.

And as for not every trainer has crawled out from under a rock to hang a shingle...true...but there seem to be an awful lot who have, especially in the last 20 years or so...

You know what they say...it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch...how many bad apples are we up to now in the sport of racing?

Well please don't lump us all in with the bad apples. Remember, they are essentially stealing money from honest horseman. For every one of them there are hundreds of us. But we must have proof. We will not get this without out of competition testing.

Also, I have watched trainers with 30%+ and when I pid attention realized they had a constant stream of horses coming from tough tracks to cheap tracks. They put them in for the same price and get claimed. So we have to be careful who we point fingers at

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

Do you think that if a trainer who cheats with meds not detectable or does other reprehensible things to their horses to gain an edge, and they were a member of Pace Advantage and posting in this thread, do you think they would raise their hand and say "im guilty"? Or would they say "not me"?

No trainer that posts on here would ever admit they are part of the problem, but someone must be part of the problem, right? Now, not the ENTIRE problem, but at least a very small part of it.

What's the saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem?

Are you calling me a cheater?

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Saratoga_Mike

DT, the answer on thyroxine (sp?) abuse/overuse is easy.

You require the state vet to personally sign off on its use, in cases that actually merit its use (the criteria for usage should be determined by a group of objective vets - I'd probably select vets from top equine vet schools). There, problem solved.

I have offered this as a solution. It could only be enforced by barn search. Although this would not provide a solution to the many horses that ship in to race from training centers like fair hill, etc. so basically you are creating advantages to those off site that run against our horses.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

Do you train at Delaware Park, home of the 40% trainer? I don't think there is a bettor alive that thinks things going on there are on the up and up. I'm certainly not indicting you personally. I have no idea what you do and don't do. But in life you will always be lumped in with your peers when it comes to work.

No, in life an intelligent person would not judge me based on another's actions.

Delaware Park is no different than other places with super trainers. They can only equalize things with out of competition testing. Think about lance Armstrong. Past the tests at the race no problem. And FYI Delaware park did random epo testing out of competition the last few years. I'm not aware of anyone else doing this.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by cj

Do you train at Delaware Park, home of the 40% trainer? I don't think there is a bettor alive that thinks things going on there are on the up and up. I'm certainly not indicting you personally. I have no idea what you do and don't do. But in life you will always be lumped in with your peers when it comes to work.

Recall this one of last August?

http://www.drf.com/news/delaware-par...iner-two-years

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/pe...n-for-needles/

Of particular note, the comment section following Paulick's piece. Similarities of recent days.

[Delawaretrainer]

I think that racing is soooooo much cleaner than it ever was. But access to social media makes that fact easy to skew. Plus, penalties are more common and the information is more available to the public. Ever think that these penalties are indications of a sport doing well in enforcement? Steroids used to be legal , prerace exams weren't done, testing was done by swab, I mean the testing area is still called the spit box. Ever see that documentary on the horse who was dq'd from the derby. Testing was a clusterf$&@. Now they can find things in samples less than picograms. A picograms is like one second in 32 years.

I mean racing was really popular when the dirtiest guys were around. I am not saying there is no work to be done. Sometimes these guys get ahead of regulators. They are not psychic. Sometimes money is an issue. Some of the next steps are very expensive . Casinos and corporate consolidation of racetracks mean that no one wants to put money into racing. Who pays for it? These are just a few if the things going on .

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I have offered this as a solution. It could only be enforced by barn search. Although this would not provide a solution to the many horses that ship in to race from training centers like fair hill, etc. so basically you are creating advantages to those off site that run against our horses.

I was wondering about this - is Thyroxine a biologic like EPO where it would be impossible to develop a test for Thyroxine itself? With EPO they came up with an anti-body test, I believe. I wonder if that would work here? Also, wouldn't high levels of Thyroxine show up on simple Thyroid test?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I think that racing is soooooo much cleaner than it ever was. But access to social media makes that fact easy to skew. Plus, penalties are more common and the information is more available to the public. Ever think that these penalties are indications of a sport doing well in enforcement? Steroids used to be legal , prerace exams weren't done, testing was done by swab, I mean the testing area is still called the spit box. Ever see that documentary on the horse who was dq'd from the derby. Testing was a clusterf$&@. Now they can find things in samples less than picograms. A picograms is like one second in 32 years.

.

How many trainers in the 1970s won (with large numbers) at a 25% to 30% annually?

Testing may be more advanced, but so are the chemists.