Stronach Group announces ban on race day meds

[chadk66]

your plenty entertaining

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Just an observation, but I would actually trust a 9 percent trainer on the drug issue over a 30 percent trainer...

Good point.

This issue is a bit of a dilemma for me.

Tracks, owners, trainers, and even vets in the industry have a vested interest in continuing Lasix because of the horse shortage and the belief that more horses will be able to compete and more often that way (and they'll generate more money).

Extreme animal lovers have a vested interest in getting drugs out of the game to the greatest extent possible even if it's beneficial treatment or causes little to no long term harm to the animal.

My own feeling is that "goal" should be treat horses the way you would treat a dog you love instead of a business commodity. You'd probably treat your own dog with drugs to relieve pain or other medical issues temporarily, but most would be less inclined to treat him with drugs just so he could compete. However, in the real world, if everyone else is using drugs that enhance performance (Lasix enhances performance and everyone that says otherwise is either full of shit or hasn't studied it with speed figures and other data), you either have to go along or get out of the sport.

I own a small piece of a few horses. They run on Lasix. That makes me mildly uncomfortable, but not enough to toss in the towel over it because I haven't seen any strong evidence of long term harm (I'm sure no vet though). However, I can say confidently that if Lasix was banned I'd feel better about it even if it cost me starts and money.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Good point.

This issue is a bit of a dilemma for me.

Tracks, owners, trainers, and even vets in the industry have a vested interest in continuing Lasix because of the horse shortage and the belief that more horses will be able to compete and more often that way (and they'll generate more money).

Extreme animal lovers have a vested interest in getting drugs out of the game to the greatest extent possible even if it's beneficial treatment or causes little to no long term harm to the animal.

My own feeling is that "goal" should be treat horses the way you would treat a dog you love instead of a business commodity. You'd probably treat your own dog with drugs to relieve pain or other medical issues temporarily, but most would be less inclined to treat him with drugs just so he could compete. However, in the real world, if everyone else is using drugs that enhance performance (Lasix enhances performance and everyone that says otherwise is either full of shit or hasn't studied it with speed figures and other data), you either have to go along or get out of the sport.

I own a small piece of a few horses. They run on Lasix. That makes me mildly uncomfortable, but not enough to toss in the towel over it because I haven't seen any strong evidence of long term harm (I'm sure no vet though). However, I can say confidently that if Lasix was banned I'd feel better about it even if it cost me starts and money.

If people treated racehorses like their own pets, then they'd treat them with Lasix. It is the most humane, effective treatment for EIPH. It's incredibly stupid that Lasix keeps being debated. It is maybe #100 on the list of racing's problems. If you look around in racing, you'll see the people pushing for a ban on Lasix are all breeders, not horsemen. See, breeders don't have to deal with EIPH, that's for the horsemen to deal with. What they want is to increase their sales to foreigners, who they think (wrongly, in my opinion) don't buy as many American horses due to our using Lasix.

What will be highly amusing is if breeders feel the old adage of being careful what you ask for. Let's see how many buyers will pay six and seven figures for potential untreatable bleeders. I predict a steep decline in the bloodstock market if this ban goes nationwide.

You handicappers are going to take it on the chin too when more horses suddenly stop in their races, and you won't have any way to predict it (at least not for years). So good luck to you!

Once a horse is a true bleeder, there's no stopping it. Not Lasix, not time, not anything. You may lessen it by giving time and such but it'll return soon enough.

So now we're about to scar up the lungs of horses far more than we do now. Somehow this is a triumph to the "Hay, Oats & Water" crowd.

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Just an observation, but I would actually trust a 9 percent trainer on the drug issue over a 30 percent trainer...

Uh, OK, but how do you feel about those who are 8% trainers all their lives, and then, suddenly become 24% trainers overnight???


That's what we're dealing with here.


(and then, add to it that they suddenly abandon the career path right after they suddenly get good)


Did somebody discover the secret to chadk66's sudden success and perhaps threaten him... ??

[biggestal99]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

If people treated racehorses like their own pets, then they'd treat them with Lasix. It is the most humane, effective treatment for EIPH. It's incredibly stupid that Lasix keeps being debated. It is maybe #100 on the list of racing's problems. If you look around in racing, you'll see the people pushing for a ban on Lasix are all breeders, not horsemen. See, breeders don't have to deal with EIPH, that's for the horsemen to deal with. What they want is to increase their sales to foreigners, who they think (wrongly, in my opinion) don't buy as many American horses due to our using Lasix.

What will be highly amusing is if breeders feel the old adage of being careful what you ask for. Let's see how many buyers will pay six and seven figures for potential untreatable bleeders. I predict a steep decline in the bloodstock market if this ban goes nationwide.

You handicappers are going to take it on the chin too when more horses suddenly stop in their races, and you won't have any way to predict it (at least not for years). So good luck to you!

Once a horse is a true bleeder, there's no stopping it. Not Lasix, not time, not anything. You may lessen it by giving time and such but it'll return soon enough.

So now we're about to scar up the lungs of horses far more than we do now. Somehow this is a triumph to the "Hay, Oats & Water" crowd.

Owned a bleeder. Bled though lasix 3 times. Trainer raised dosage of lasix.
Only got caught once.

Btw the horse ran 63 times, Won 9 races and over $150,000 in claiming races.

Never claimed as everyone knew it was a major bleeder.

Allan

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

Uh, OK, but how do you feel about those who are 8% trainers all their lives, and then, suddenly become 24% trainers overnight???


That's what we're dealing with here.


(and then, add to it that they suddenly abandon the career path right after they suddenly get good)


Did somebody discover the secret to chadk66's sudden success and perhaps threaten him... ??

Is this really the point this thread has reached, that we have to examine the poster's training record from 30 years ago---not even to determine his skill as trainer, but looking for conspiracy theories? As if that means a damn thing about what is happening at Santa Anita now.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

If people treated racehorses like their own pets, then they'd treat them with Lasix.

I think you missed part of my point.

I would not allow my dog to compete if he bled.

On the Lasix itself, I'm not a vet and don't know any. It's hard for someone like me to trust what I am being told. There are too many people with a vested interest. When a lot of money is involved, people will say and sometimes even fool themselves into believing all kinds of bullshit.

[bob60566]

Like this comment from Fager Fan

Once a horse is a true bleeder, there's no stopping it. Not Lasix, not time, not anything. You may lessen it by giving time and such but it'll return soon enough.

How many horses racing today would this apply to.??

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by castaway01

Is this really the point this thread has reached, that we have to examine the poster's training record from 30 years ago---not even to determine his skill as trainer, but looking for conspiracy theories? As if that means a damn thing about what is happening at Santa Anita now.

The training records of persons who suddenly got much better at training from one period to the next are FAR more relevant to Santa Anita’s many recent horse deaths than is Lasix (which was around well before ChadK suddenly improved 3X on his career win percentage overnight )

Now perhaps ChadK, as he presents himself to us today, really does know all of the secrets and answers racing (and esp. Santa Anita) needs.

I have merely offered some insight into ChadK’s unique qualifications to pontificate on this and related matters.

So who do we want to learn from?

1 - some disgruntled fool who just lost a photo or an inquiry ??

or

2 - a trainer who suddenly saw his win percentage go from its historical norm of 8% to a level three times that, who then nobly quit at the very pinnacle of his successes with so very much more to give ??

ChadK is perhaps uniquely qualified to resume giving to the racing industry via spilling the trade secrets which should fit snug into the puzzling rash of sudden horse deaths at SA.

This guy likely has our answers (if only we’ll listen).

I’ve merely documented his likely qualifications.

[JohnGalt1]

An interesting article was posted at Blood Horse.com by Evan Hammonds titled Fair Play dated 3/27.

Carl Nafzger believes that horses bleed or bleed more due to stress. Horses placed in too high class races feel stress causing worsening symptoms.

Put horses in races equal to their abilities or in easier races would reduce bleeding.

Does this make sense to any of you?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

The training records of persons who suddenly got much better at training from one period to the next are FAR more relevant to Santa Anita’s many recent horse deaths than is Lasix (which was around well before ChadK suddenly improved 3X on his career win percentage overnight )

Now perhaps ChadK, as he presents himself to us today, really does know all of the secrets and answers racing (and esp. Santa Anita) needs.

I have merely offered some insight into ChadK’s unique qualifications to pontificate on this and related matters.

So who do we want to learn from?

1 - some disgruntled fool who just lost a photo or an inquiry ??

or

2 - a trainer who suddenly saw his win percentage go from its historical norm of 8% to a level three times that, who then nobly quit at the very pinnacle of his successes with so very much more to give ??

ChadK is perhaps uniquely qualified to resume giving to the racing industry via spilling the trade secrets which should fit snug into the puzzling rash of sudden horse deaths at SA.

This guy likely has our answers (if only we’ll listen).

I’ve merely documented his likely qualifications.

I don’t know why the powers that be around here allow these low-blow personal attacks. Make no mistake though. They reflect more poorly on the ones who make these attacks than the target.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnGalt1

An interesting article was posted at Blood Horse.com by Evan Hammonds titled Fair Play dated 3/27.

Carl Nafzger believes that horses bleed or bleed more due to stress. Horses placed in too high class races feel stress causing worsening symptoms.

Put horses in races equal to their abilities or in easier races would reduce bleeding.

Does this make sense to any of you?

What raises our blood pressure?

Never heard this theory before but can possibly see this in some occasional horses when tossed to the wolves.

[Dahossdaboss]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I don’t know why the powers that be around here allow these low-blow personal attacks. Make no mistake though. They reflect more poorly on the ones who make these attacks than the target.

Before your current Pollyanna routine you consistently made more personal attacks than most.

How about you stop lecturing people, k?

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I don’t know why the powers that be around here allow these low-blow personal attacks. Make no mistake though. They reflect more poorly on the ones who make these attacks than the target.

Uh, where do you see an "attack" in the factual reality I've presented?


Are you implying that ChadK wasn't an 8% trainer over his career before his win percentage suddenly, and without explanation skyrocketed to three times that?

Are you suggesting that you've not seen scores of others here at PA write of the many trainers nation-wide who found sudden success at Thoroughbred training overnight?


I've done no more than to document ChadK's fine work as a horseman, and with that, his clear qualifications to talk-down to most everyone in this thread.


Of course there remains the mystery as to why ChadK suddenly gave it all up nearly 28 years ago, right when he had the racing world by the short hairs.


Let me guess, Fager Fan:


You just lost a photo or an inquiry (and you're simultaneously envious of all ChadK's secrets).


If this were a personal attack, then there are personal attacks on Bob Baffert here all the time. The difference is, people here reference Bob Baffert by his true identity. ChadK remains more akin to a Pegasus and the stuff of legend than a mere person in these pages. So how can you characterize such a thing as a personal attack?

[sammy the sage]

Originally Posted by Dahossdaboss

Before your current Pollyanna routine you consistently made more personal attacks than most.

How about you stop lecturing people, k?

I got's to buy you a mirror too...damn the list is getting long....