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Old 08-16-2017, 07:30 PM   #16
AlsoEligible
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I have been looking for a location and might have found suitable land. Pictures to follow later.

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I only started posting about this a few days ago in response to the uproar about Keeneland. And you want to see a location and business plan!
So do you have a location or not? Yesterday you did, today you apparently don't.

I actually was going to take this seriously (or at least as seriously as possible), but now I'll agree with the first guy who responded...can we have some of what you're smoking?
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:16 PM   #17
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Leave lots of room for the SLOTS~~
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:35 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by AlsoEligible View Post
So do you have a location or not? Yesterday you did, today you apparently don't.

I actually was going to take this seriously (or at least as seriously as possible), but now I'll agree with the first guy who responded...can we have some of what you're smoking?
So I am supposed to lock down a location in a couple of days?

I wish it worked that way.

First you have to identify locations and then you have to have cash for the transaction.

Have you ever tried to do anything of this magnitude before? Rome wasn't built in a day as you have probably heard before.

Keep the comments coming. These all need to be addressed at some point.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:37 PM   #19
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Leave lots of room for the SLOTS~~
Bush League Downs will not need slots. But if they do get them takeouts will be decreased even more.

Maybe the name of the track should be Horseplayer Downs.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:37 PM   #20
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So I am supposed to lock down a location in a couple of days?

I wish it worked that way.

First you have to identify locations and then you have to have cash for the transaction.

Have you ever tried to do anything of this magnitude before? Rome wasn't built in a day as you have probably heard before.

Keep the comments coming. These all need to be addressed at some point.
You initially made it sound like you had a model and a plan for operation. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck.

I'm reminded of this:


Last edited by elhelmete; 08-16-2017 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by highnote View Post
So I am supposed to lock down a location in a couple of days?

I wish it worked that way.

First you have to identify locations and then you have to have cash for the transaction.

Have you ever tried to do anything of this magnitude before? Rome wasn't built in a day as you have probably heard before.

Keep the comments coming. These all need to be addressed at some point.
If you want to have this hypothetical discussion, then you need to supply a reasonably well thought out plan for us to then point to its problems.

In another post, you said something about a turf course would be great as it's already built by nature. I really don't wish to be insulting, but between this statement and the crowd-funding and knowing how you're going to get this great population of horses, without even a location in mind, it's striking me that you're totally ignorant about what running a racetrack would cost and entail and about business in general.

This whole thread is just pissing in the wind.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:00 PM   #22
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If you want to have this hypothetical discussion, then you need to supply a reasonably well thought out plan for us to then point to its problems.

In another post, you said something about a turf course would be great as it's already built by nature. I really don't wish to be insulting, but between this statement and the crowd-funding and knowing how you're going to get this great population of horses, without even a location in mind, it's striking me that you're totally ignorant about what running a racetrack would cost and entail and about business in general.

This whole thread is just pissing in the wind.
I won't argue that I am ignorant if a lot of things. If perfect knowledge was a prerequisite no business would ever get off the ground.

The whole idea behind this thread is to get ideas on how to help horseplayers. I hear a lot of bitching about takeouts, but no solutions.

I hear a lot of criticism about BLD but not many ideas on how to make a horseplayer owned track a reality.

That's ok. Not everyone is a visionary and an entrepreneur.

Last edited by highnote; 08-16-2017 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:33 PM   #23
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You initially made it sound like you had a model and a plan for operation. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck.
I don't recall saying I had, as you seem to be implying, a concrete model and a plan.

I have rough idea on how to go about building a horseplayer owned track. It is a large undertaking. I have only been thinking semi-deeply about it for a few days.

I think it is doable. But I would like to get as much feedback as possible -- both positive and negative. The negative comments are as welcomed as the positive ones because a lot can be learned by thinking about them.

I have identified one specific possible location, but I need to find out who owns the land. I have also searched the surrounding county and identified several farms with suitable land.

Could any of these properties be rented or purchased? I don't know. I have to talk to the owners.

If the land could be obtained it will then need to be cleared to make the track.

Cutting down trees and mowing the brush will take time.

Since the meeting will be of limited length a large population of horses won't be needed.

Perhaps the track can own the horses and hire trainers? What would that entail? I don't know. It is just one possibility of the multitude of different scenarios.

I figure I can either sit around and bitch about the state of the industry and how high takeouts, rebates, or completion from other forms of gambling are killing the game or I can try to find solutions.

The fact that people are reading this thread and making positive or negative posts is a good sign. They comment because they care.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:10 PM   #24
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I have identified one specific possible location, but I need to find out who owns the land. I have also searched the surrounding county and identified several farms with suitable land.
Again, what state is this county in? If you want us to play along with your hypothetical race track, we need to know the jurisdiction, even if it's not a confirmed location yet.

Like if you're trying to buy land and open another track in California or Florida, don't waste your time. If it's in Montana or Kansas (just throwing out state names), that's a very different story.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:30 PM   #25
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I don't recall saying I had, as you seem to be implying, a concrete model and a plan.

I have rough idea on how to go about building a horseplayer owned track. It is a large undertaking. I have only been thinking semi-deeply about it for a few days.

I think it is doable. But I would like to get as much feedback as possible -- both positive and negative. The negative comments are as welcomed as the positive ones because a lot can be learned by thinking about them.

I have identified one specific possible location, but I need to find out who owns the land. I have also searched the surrounding county and identified several farms with suitable land.

Could any of these properties be rented or purchased? I don't know. I have to talk to the owners.

If the land could be obtained it will then need to be cleared to make the track.

Cutting down trees and mowing the brush will take time.

Since the meeting will be of limited length a large population of horses won't be needed.

Perhaps the track can own the horses and hire trainers? What would that entail? I don't know. It is just one possibility of the multitude of different scenarios.

I figure I can either sit around and bitch about the state of the industry and how high takeouts, rebates, or completion from other forms of gambling are killing the game or I can try to find solutions.

The fact that people are reading this thread and making positive or negative posts is a good sign. They comment because they care.
You can't just buy some land and build a track, you know, unless you plan on racing Breyer horses that no one gambles on.

How are you going to get the tens of millions needed to buy the land and build the complex and track surfaces?

Own the horses and hire the trainers? Gosh, let's say it's 1500 horses at $10,000 each, so that's $15m. You won't find any sane trainers who will train said horses, so let's assume you find about 30 insane trainers at $60/day, so you'll be paying them $90,000 a day to train those 1500 horses, or $2.7m a month (and $32,400,000 a year). You also have to pay for all the equipment and employees to tend to the surface, man the starting gates, outride, security, and all the track facility staff, so add a few more million.

How's this for a start?
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:38 PM   #26
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Hey, thinking outside the box is good. There are some locations/jurisdictions that have seen their revenue dwindle. You might be able to convince a racing commission that your plan would work (produce more revenue).
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:18 AM   #27
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Again, what state is this county in? If you want us to play along with your hypothetical race track, we need to know the jurisdiction, even if it's not a confirmed location yet.

Like if you're trying to buy land and open another track in California or Florida, don't waste your time. If it's in Montana or Kansas (just throwing out state names), that's a very different story.
I'm thinking maybe someplace in Ohio or Indiana because I am relatively familiar with those states. Farm land in IN is probably more expensive than in OH.

I have a relative who owns a ranch in OK where he raises buffalo. He's trains horses to rope steers for rodeos and practices on the buffalo. He's also a blacksmith. He owns excavating equipment. Hell, he could build the track, shoe the horses, and provide the land now that I think about it! I'll have to ask him what land prices are like there. Lots of horse farms near where he lives. It kind of reminded me of Lexington and Paris, KY, although not as green.

If you could draw a big square with the cities of Pittsburgh in the east, to Omaha in the west, to St. Paul, MN in the north and Memphis or Oklahoma City to the south lying on the edges of the square you should be able to find something.

I have not looked at land prices in all these states, so I don't know which has the least expensive.

Detroit is a mess. You'd think you could get a hold of some industrial land and redevelop it for cheap.

Perhaps old strip mined land or other industrial land that is not suitable for growing crops due to contamination could be reclaimed. It is probably save to walk on -- as long as the horses don't eat the grass that grows there!

Hmmm -- how do you keep a horse from eating grass?

Last edited by highnote; 08-17-2017 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 08-17-2017, 02:10 AM   #28
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You can't just buy some land and build a track, you know, unless you plan on racing Breyer horses that no one gambles on.
People will gamble where they can find an edge. Arabian races are fairly popular. It's all a matter of how you structure the racing. If every race was a a true handicap that gave each horse a good chance of winning, handicapping would be important. Too many short fields with low priced winners in the U.S. make for an unpopular product, even though I have argued low priced winners are exciting if you bet enough money on them.

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How are you going to get the tens of millions needed to buy the land and build the complex and track surfaces?
No way it would take tens of millions. In fact, the budget is going to be $1 million. This is going to be a country track with no grandstand. Look at those jump courses down south. I doubt they cost tens of millions to cut a track through a field and put up some timber jumps and railings.

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Own the horses and hire the trainers? Gosh, let's say it's 1500 horses at $10,000 each, so that's $15m.
1500 horses would be unrealistic at first because there is no place to keep them. It doesn't make sense to build a 1500 horse stable. This ain't going to be the Hong Kong Jockey Club. Remember this is Bush League Downs and it will be a short meet. If it looks promising then more dates can be added.

In order to be a going concern, BLD might have to return to the roots of racing -- heat racing rather than dash racing. In heat racing, the horses ran 4 miles heats. The first one to win two heats was declared the winner. Nowadays, heat races are far more popular and the winner of one heat (a dash) wins the race.

The breed has tilted toward speed and away from stamina. I would love to see stamina become more highly valued like in early colonial days of American racing. Back then heat races were popular. I'm sure they could still be exciting and popular

I have thought of some interesting twists on heat racing that do not require a large population of horses. The heats would be handicap races. So it would be more like betting on NFL football than a match race between Secretariat and Onion where Secretariat would be 1/20 and Onion would be 20/1. Sometimes Onion would win, but most of the time it would not be a great betting event. But what if Secretariat carried 168 points to Onion's 125? Which horse would be the first to win two four mile heats? Now it starts to get interesting.

Granted, the cheap claimers at BLD would not be anywhere in the same league with Big Red, but that's not the goal. The goal is to make interesting and novel betting events. Handicapped heat racing can accomplish that.

It might be possible for, say, a field of 14 horses to run six 6 furlong heats -- that's a total 4.5 miles. The winner of each heat would win a small purse. Knowing that they have to race 6 heats, I would expect the jockeys to rate their horses for the first 4 furlongs and then sprint to the wire. At the end of the day, the horses would have sprinted only 8 furlongs over about an 8 hour period. The winner of the most heats or perhaps the winner of the final heat would get the largest share of the purse.

With this method, only a small group of horses are needed to run a full day of races. Plus they would be handicap races which would help even out the odds.

This is the first iteration of the idea. Its a start. It might have some potential. If not, then maybe I will think of something else.

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You won't find any sane trainers who will train said horses, so let's assume you find about 30 insane trainers at $60/day, so you'll be paying them $90,000 a day to train those 1500 horses, or $2.7m a month (and $32,400,000 a year).
I have seen healthy young thoroughbreds for sale for $500. I know this for a fact because my trainer bought one for the syndicate I started several years ago. He broke his maiden after about 5 races at Mountaineer Park. We made a little money and then sold him privately and he became a jumper in Georgia.

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You also have to pay for all the equipment and employees to tend to the surface, man the starting gates, outride, security, and all the track facility staff, so add a few more million.
Good points. Very little equipment will be needed. This is Bush League Downs. A tractor to keep the track mowed will be needed, but if we lease land from a farmer, he probably has a tractor and would be happy to earn extra money to keep the course mowed.

No starting gates needed. We'll do a flag drop -- just like in the old, old days.

Many countries don't use outriders because their horses are well trained, but you'll probably need a few people on horseback in case a horse breaks loose.

Security -- local police can be hired or a security firm. There won't be any crowd. So crowd control won't be an issue.

Staff? You mean investors. BLD will be financed by Equity Crowd Funding. We can get a few investors to help out with growing their company. Afterall, the more successful the track becomes the more the investors make.

Other staff could be 4H volunteers. We'll be in farm country so there is bound to be a 4H club around. Internship opportunities will abound.

The goal is not to recreate Belmont Park. The goal is to create a horseplayer owned and operated track that is horseplayer friendly.

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How's this for a start?
TERRIFIC! Keep 'em coming!

I fully expect a lot of criticism and perhaps some name calling. But what the heck. Just like a politician, you have to have a thick skin. Elon Musk actually managed to building electric cars and send rockets into space and he still gets criticized!
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:37 AM   #29
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Had to check my calendar to make sure it's not 4/1...
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:50 AM   #30
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Leave lots of room for the SLOTS~~
You will need slots to fuel the purses, take the slots away from NYRA and you are running for peanuts. Unless you have a Saratoga type setting you are better off investing in land and building homes.
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