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Old 08-15-2018, 09:22 PM   #7741
VigorsTheGrey
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Absolutely. Jesus defeated death and the devil who had the power of death. Because I'm in Christ, I will not only not suffer the second death (eternal damnation) but will be raised up to have a glorified body just like his, and spend eternity in the New Earth that will be encompassed by Edenic glory.
Thank you for stating this position so clearly, which, knowing you, is entirely scriptural. You always back up your position with scripture which I think is commendable and make what could be emotional subjects somewhat less so...so thanks again.

The statement above represents, IMO, the primary seduction of the Christian storyline...Life is tough for many of us and the thought of dying and not being here on earth is really terrifying for most of us...we feel helpless before this devastating and ultimate reality...when those important loved ones around us pass it changes how we feel about everything and causes us to re-examine our relationships with those remaining...

...eventually, we begin to miss them and feel uneasy about our own mortality as well.

The Problem/ Reaction/ Solution comes into play here where:
1. The Problem is death
2. The Reaction is Fear
3. The Solution is “the Victory over death (through belief in Christ)

The propaganda line of the religion is that “we don’t really die now” because we trust in Christ to raise us from the grave”...while this is, no doubt, very consoling, it is absolutely a fantasy, not true...and I think the Christian message does a gross disservice in continuing to propagate this doctrine and others relating to continued existence in some “afterlife”...it simply is not true. And to maintain it is not worthy of a master who maintains that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

One can only wonder how many Christians there would be without this great but false promise...but I’m sure it wouldn’t matter to many, and no doubt many Christians do not in fact believe it, even though they may play lip service to the doctrine...

Our own mortality and passing is just too blatant and shocking to regard it as anything other than our ultimate reality...Sorry Boxcar, your dream of eternal life is just that. Presently, we can only work to extend our lives the best we can by taking care of ourselves and others the best that we can...

...deep down inside, I know that you understand this as well as the rest of us...

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Old 08-15-2018, 10:36 PM   #7742
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Absolutely. Jesus defeated death and the devil who had the power of death. Because I'm in Christ, I will not only not suffer the second death (eternal damnation) but will be raised up to have a glorified body just like his, and spend eternity in the New Earth that will be encompassed by Edenic glory.
This "New Earth" living...will it be on another planet somewhere?
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:40 PM   #7743
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This "New Earth"...will it be on another planet somewhere?
Your confusing the Mormons with the morons.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:10 AM   #7744
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Absolutely. Jesus defeated death...
Didn’t you say the Jews killed him?

Make up your mind.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:45 AM   #7745
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I know he exists. You can, too, ...
How? As long as God chooses to remain hidden then for me to "know he exists" would require me to set aside logic, something which I cannot choose to do. Since I cannot do that then what you suggest is Pascal's Wager. But surely God, if he exists, would know that I was simply betting an overlay. Is that what this hypothetical God wants?

Then there's Clark's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." To that add Actor's corollary: "Anyone in possession of a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a god." The cargo cults of the Pacific (e.g., the John Frum Religion) are evidence of this. If God were to reveal himself to me how could I be certain that what I was witnessing was not an alien from some other planet with a technology that I simply could not understand?

If the Bible is true then is it not possible that that is exactly what Yahweh is: an alien with an advanced technology? Think about that. For an alien to travel to Earth at half the speed of light in a starship the size of a space shuttle would require more energy that that of the earth spinning on its axis. With that much energy at his disposal parting the Red Sea would be no problem. Ditto making the sun stand still for a day (i.e., stopping the Earth's rotation). Global flood? No problem. Outer space is filled with hydrogen atoms. Ten hydrogen atoms = one molecule of water. To get rid of the water afterwards just convert it back to hydrogen. Ditto any other miracle in the Bible.

Why would he (they?) do such a thing? Who knows? Maybe he thought it would be a great joke to pull on us before flying off to another solar system. Maybe "the fall" was a case of Adam and Eve getting hold of one of his books (or computer terminals) and starting to understand the technology, and the "fruit" bit is just a metaphor.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:32 AM   #7746
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Prove God doesn't exist. I know he exists.
You and the other Christians know that the biblical God exists, but you can't prove it. And the rest of us know that he DOESN'T exist...but we can't prove that either. So...it's a stalemate...and I declare this debate a DRAW! Fair enough?
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:20 AM   #7747
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You and the other Christians know that the biblical God exists, but you can't prove it. And the rest of us know that he DOESN'T exist...but we can't prove that either. So...it's a stalemate...and I declare this debate a DRAW! Fair enough?
How do you know he doesn't exist? We both can't prove it, but only one group knows for sure that He does exist because of the kind of witness of himself he has given to his people. In addition to that, the kind of faith God's people have been given by him assures them of things hoped for and the certainty of things not seen (Heb 1:1). This is why a true Christian can never fall away. True Christians actually do have proof of God's existence but that proof is hidden from the world's eyes.

A very good analogy to this kind of proof are the 40 days that Christ spent with only his disciples after his resurrection. This is why the resurrection was THE life-changing event for his disciples (which consisted far more than just the 11) and why they were transformed into bold, courageous witnesses for Christ.
Conversely, no unbeliever saw the resurrected Christ during those 40 days.
Christ hid himself from the unbelieving world for the same reasons he spoke in parables during his ministry.

The best you can say is that you hope God doesn't exist; for you have no kind of proof that he doesn't.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:26 AM   #7748
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How? As long as God chooses to remain hidden then for me to "know he exists" would require me to set aside logic, something which I cannot choose to do. Since I cannot do that then what you suggest is Pascal's Wager. But surely God, if he exists, would know that I was simply betting an overlay. Is that what this hypothetical God wants?

Then there's Clark's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." To that add Actor's corollary: "Anyone in possession of a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a god." The cargo cults of the Pacific (e.g., the John Frum Religion) are evidence of this. If God were to reveal himself to me how could I be certain that what I was witnessing was not an alien from some other planet with a technology that I simply could not understand?

If the Bible is true then is it not possible that that is exactly what Yahweh is: an alien with an advanced technology? Think about that. For an alien to travel to Earth at half the speed of light in a starship the size of a space shuttle would require more energy that that of the earth spinning on its axis. With that much energy at his disposal parting the Red Sea would be no problem. Ditto making the sun stand still for a day (i.e., stopping the Earth's rotation). Global flood? No problem. Outer space is filled with hydrogen atoms. Ten hydrogen atoms = one molecule of water. To get rid of the water afterwards just convert it back to hydrogen. Ditto any other miracle in the Bible.

Why would he (they?) do such a thing? Who knows? Maybe he thought it would be a great joke to pull on us before flying off to another solar system. Maybe "the fall" was a case of Adam and Eve getting hold of one of his books (or computer terminals) and starting to understand the technology, and the "fruit" bit is just a metaphor.
No, what is required of you to know that God exists is to humble yourself before him and ask him to reveal his truth to you in the scriptures. But this you won't do because you cannot do this either. And this utter spiritual helplessness requires even greater humility than if you could do anything at all to help yourself out.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:28 AM   #7749
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Didn’t you say the Jews killed him?

Make up your mind.
Never heard of the resurrection?

If you had lived in Jesus' day, you would have made a great Sadducee.
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Old 08-16-2018, 11:30 AM   #7750
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This "New Earth" living...will it be on another planet somewhere?
Wherever it is, that's where I'll want to be because that's where Christ will be.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:05 PM   #7751
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Thank you for stating this position so clearly, which, knowing you, is entirely scriptural. You always back up your position with scripture which I think is commendable and make what could be emotional subjects somewhat less so...so thanks again.

The statement above represents, IMO, the primary seduction of the Christian storyline...Life is tough for many of us and the thought of dying and not being here on earth is really terrifying for most of us...we feel helpless before this devastating and ultimate reality...when those important loved ones around us pass it changes how we feel about everything and causes us to re-examine our relationships with those remaining...

...eventually, we begin to miss them and feel uneasy about our own mortality as well.

The Problem/ Reaction/ Solution comes into play here where:
1. The Problem is death
2. The Reaction is Fear
3. The Solution is “the Victory over death (through belief in Christ)

The propaganda line of the religion is that “we don’t really die now” because we trust in Christ to raise us from the grave”...while this is, no doubt, very consoling, it is absolutely a fantasy, not true...and I think the Christian message does a gross disservice in continuing to propagate this doctrine and others relating to continued existence in some “afterlife”...it simply is not true. And to maintain it is not worthy of a master who maintains that he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

One can only wonder how many Christians there would be without this great but false promise...but I’m sure it wouldn’t matter to many, and no doubt many Christians do not in fact believe it, even though they may play lip service to the doctrine...

Our own mortality and passing is just too blatant and shocking to regard it as anything other than our ultimate reality...Sorry Boxcar, your dream of eternal life is just that. Presently, we can only work to extend our lives the best we can by taking care of ourselves and others the best that we can...

...deep down inside, I know that you understand this as well as the rest of us...
Christians are assured of eternal life because Christ rose from the grave. Christ came to earth to actually save people and share his Father's inheritance with his "brothers and sisters" (believers). Because Christ lives, His people are guaranteed to live with him.

The huge problem all unbelievers have when denying the physical resurrection of Christ is the empty tomb. The Roman and Jewish authorities knew where Christ was laid. Why didn't they expose the lies of this disciples by simply going to the tomb and producing the body?

Moreover, there is an additional problem that is as sticky as the resurrection. In fact, I devoted a few posts to this problem because it is so huge. And those posts were written mainly in the context of refuting the denial of the existence of Christ, and all the evangelism and gospel preaching that took place after Pentecost. I have often asked Actor, for example, where are all the first century Jewish writings that refute or at least question the existence of Christ (or even the resurrection for that matter), since a crucified Jewish Messiah would have been anathema to most Jewish minds? The preaching of a crucified Messiah would have been downright repugnant to the Jewish mindset -- because while very many Jews were believing in a coming Messiah, it was not a crucified Messiah -- it was a divine king, the Son of David, who would come and deliver his people from the yoke of Rome, establish his throne in the City of David (Jerusalem), and then bring all the exiles back from the nations to which they were scattered during and even after the Babylonian captivity. Plus the Jews knew from their own scriptures that anyone hung on a tree was considered accursed. All this being true, one would reasonably think that the Jewish religious establishment would have reacted quickly and decisively to the gospel preaching that was attracting and converting thousands of Jews after Pentecost. They would have easily been able to easily refute from their own Hebrew scriptures that a crucified Messiah was nowhere to be found in their scriptures. But instead, we have nothing but silence!

Not even Josephus, the great Jewish historian, even remotely hinted that a crucified Messiah would not be possible. How odd is this!? The Jewish religious establishment stood by (helplessly?) to watch the gospel spread like wildfire across Jerusalem Judea, Samaria and even well into the Roman empire where other Jews were converted? This makes no sense at all! Why wouldn't the unbelieving Jewish scholars have written volumes refuting the despicable idea that their Messiah would have been shamed and humiliated by being hung on a cross?

If you're interested in reading those series of posts, I'll dig out the numbers for you. My arguments must have been pretty compelling, for not even Actor whimpered a sound in protest.
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:50 PM   #7752
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The huge problem all unbelievers have when denying the physical resurrection of Christ is the empty tomb. The Roman and Jewish authorities knew where Christ was laid. Why didn't they expose the lies of this disciples by simply going to the tomb and producing the body?
Can one be spiritual, not believing your myths? What about the Eskimo who never heard of Christ? Or the Jews of the last 2000+ years who were murdered and persecuted by "Christians"? Jews who don't accept or care a whit about your "empty tombs"?

I see you are on your religious exclusivity rants again.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:19 PM   #7753
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If you're interested in reading those series of posts, I'll dig out the numbers for you.
Please do.

By the way, how's your screenplay coming? Just asking.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:22 PM   #7754
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No, what is required of you to know that God exists is to humble yourself before him ...
That presupposes that I already believe.
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:49 PM   #7755
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I have often asked Actor, for example, where are all the first century Jewish writings that refute or at least question the existence of Christ ...
There are two answers to that. First, they don't exist because the Christian religion did not spread like wildfire as Christians claim. They were a small, mostly unknown cult who, in modern terms, slipped under the radar. Few were educated and writing materials were expensive. No one had the time or interest in refuting the claims of a small Jewish/Greek cult who were only one of many small cults. No one refuted the existence of Hercules or Dionysus either.

Second, once Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire the Christians went on a centuries long book burning campaign. Possession of any anti-Christian book carried the death penalty. They even burned the library at Alexandria and murdered the librarian. That book-burning mob was personally lead by the Bishop of Alexandria. So the answer to "where are all the writings" is that the Christians burned them and murdered the writer.
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