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Old 06-15-2018, 07:10 PM   #16
jahura2
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Didn't beat anyone and didn't show any true grit; not a sign of stamina, endurance, courage, determination and late drive - those qualities of class that make for a truly remarkable horse. The horse, he is a fine horse. No doubt the horse possesses speed, but just enough speed - measured and paced speed - to get there jussst in time.

How can you connect w/that type of horse? People connect w/him, but just for now. He is a horse of his time, quickly forgotten.

It would have been spectacular to have seen him hook w/another horse early, go nose to nose, stride for stride, crack of the whip for crack of the whip in a thrilling stretch drive and show that what he has compares to those that have demonstrated they truly have it. This one, don't think so. I was at the Bloodhorse site the other day and the headline mentioned something about his "legacy"; kidding me, right?

Read today horse is back in training, so not all is lost, he still has time to show he has the right stuff.

I will, once again, pose the unanswered questions: Where do Justify's Kentucky, Maryland and NY final times rank compared to those that ran before him? How would you rank him when compared to the previous 12 Triple Crown Champions?



Sunday Silence . . .
Both highlighted quotes also laughably inaccurate. Beat what was hailed as the best 3 yr old crop in years and won the triple crown so he no longer has to prove anything to anyone. If Justify doesnt have the "right stuff" then none of us know what the "right stuff" is.

Last edited by jahura2; 06-15-2018 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:24 PM   #17
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Any horse who wins the Triple Crown is one of the all-time greats in my book.

And I believe Restoring Hope played dirty on purpose, but I'm not putting any asterisk next to Justify's Belmont or Triple Crown either. It's a hard feat.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Blenheim View Post
Didn't beat anyone and didn't show any true grit; not a sign of stamina, endurance, courage, determination and late drive - those qualities of class that make for a truly remarkable horse. The horse, he is a fine horse. No doubt the horse possesses speed, but just enough speed - measured and paced speed - to get there jussst in time.

How can you connect w/that type of horse? People connect w/him, but just for now. He is a horse of his time, quickly forgotten.

It would have been spectacular to have seen him hook w/another horse early, go nose to nose, stride for stride, crack of the whip for crack of the whip in a thrilling stretch drive and show that what he has compares to those that have demonstrated they truly have it. This one, don't think so. I was at the Bloodhorse site the other day and the headline mentioned something about his "legacy"; kidding me, right?

Read today horse is back in training, so not all is lost, he still has time to show he has the right stuff.

I will, once again, pose the unanswered questions: Where do Justify's Kentucky, Maryland and NY final times rank compared to those that ran before him? How would you rank him when compared to the previous 12 Triple Crown Champions?



Sunday Silence . . .
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Originally Posted by Blenheim View Post
He has proven he is the class hoss' w/the best trainer and jockey.



If he runs out front at a moderate pace in the Belmont, even w/company, he should win. They gotta beat this guy and thus far, none of the other horses match up. The only thing that beats this horse is pace.
Seems like you are just grasping at something because you probably were betting NI or Restoring Hope. And now you want to compare raw times from races that are decades apart, and are run on completely different surfaces. Blah, blah blah, it was one race, get over it.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:46 PM   #19
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His legacy will be 112 days from maiden debut to undefeated triple crown winner while facing more total horses in the three triple crown races that any other TC winner.



I have no idea why this horse continues to draw criticism.
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Blenheim View Post
Didn't beat anyone and didn't show any true grit; not a sign of stamina, endurance, courage, determination and late drive - those qualities of class that make for a truly remarkable horse. The horse, he is a fine horse. No doubt the horse possesses speed, but just enough speed - measured and paced speed - to get there jussst in time.

How can you connect w/that type of horse? People connect w/him, but just for now. He is a horse of his time, quickly forgotten.

It would have been spectacular to have seen him hook w/another horse early, go nose to nose, stride for stride, crack of the whip for crack of the whip in a thrilling stretch drive and show that what he has compares to those that have demonstrated they truly have it. This one, don't think so. I was at the Bloodhorse site the other day and the headline mentioned something about his "legacy"; kidding me, right?

Read today horse is back in training, so not all is lost, he still has time to show he has the right stuff.

I will, once again, pose the unanswered questions: Where do Justify's Kentucky, Maryland and NY final times rank compared to those that ran before him? How would you rank him when compared to the previous 12 Triple Crown Champions?



Sunday Silence . . .
welcome back LoneF
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:54 PM   #21
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Any horse who wins the Triple Crown is one of the all-time greats in my book.

And I believe Restoring Hope played dirty on purpose, but I'm not putting any asterisk next to Justify's Belmont or Triple Crown either. It's a hard feat.
I definitely don't think Sir Barton or Omaha is an all time great.
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:35 AM   #22
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I definitely don't think Sir Barton or Omaha is an all time great.
The fact you remember their name some 80-90 years later kinda proves their place in history, which was what one person stated, that they would be forgotten shortly, which is stupid.
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:13 AM   #23
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I definitely don't think Sir Barton or Omaha is an all time great.
The latter almost shattered one of the greatest "curses" known to horse racing...

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Old 06-16-2018, 12:03 PM   #24
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The Rise of the Swifty . . .

Thanks for all the fine compliments. I’m not gonna get into the personal stuff w/ya, that’s not where I comin’ from. I’m approaching this from a handicapping and hoss racin’ perspective. I live in a state where hoss race bettin’ is still illegal, the OTB is just too far, so I didn’t bet any of the Triple Crown races.

~

It would have been nice to see Justify meet and defeat the Noble Indy challenge as it may have proved his class. Instead Baffert sent Restoring Hope to protect Justify and he ran out front uncontested, so his class remains uncertain. That’s hoss racin’, happens all the time, part of the game, I accept it.

Back to the question of class.

Class is measured by how fast the horse ran, whom the horse beat, how he or she beat the opposition particularly in the late stages of deep stretch where the true measures of class are displayed - stamina, endurance, courage, determination and late drive - true grit. Best I can tell, this horse won all of his races, less the Maryland, on the front end uncontested, won the Kentucky and the Maryland on the ease and breeze of the slop and he ran out front uncontested in the NY. In the Maryland when contested by Good Magic, in deep stretch he didn't display any of those true measures of class described above - he couldn't put the opposition away and grind em' into the dirt. If the finish was just a few more yards he loses to lowly Bravazo and Tenfold.

How do Justify’s times compare to those Triple Crown winners that came before him? From a historical perspective how fast did he run the California, the Kentucky, the Maryland and the NY? And, how would you rank Justify when compared to the previous 12 Triple Crown winners?

He is the horse of our time - late developing, lightly raced, highly talented swifty. They get out front and run as fast and as far as their talent and breeding allow. Once these swiftys get out front on the fast or sloppy they're hard to catch, particularly in the Classics because the competition isn't bred with enough stamina to overcome that speed deep stretch. If these types go easy uncontested they're hard to beat. We'll never know their true class because their greed value is found at stud.

How good was Smarty Jones? Afleet Alex? Street Sense? Big Brown? All were recent and highly distinguished three-year-olds. None defeated leading older horses. They were retired prematurely per the contemporary custom, before their genuine class could be established on the track. (Quinn)

As we begin to see the dual-qualifying classic types fade we will no doubt see more swifty types emerge to win the Classics and the Triple Crown. In so doing the value of the Triple Crown will be diluted and another nail will be sunk into the coffin of America’s first and greatest sport.
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Blenheim View Post
Thanks for all the fine compliments. I’m not gonna get into the personal stuff w/ya, that’s not where I comin’ from. I’m approaching this from a handicapping and hoss racin’ perspective. I live in a state where hoss race bettin’ is still illegal, the OTB is just too far, so I didn’t bet any of the Triple Crown races.

~

It would have been nice to see Justify meet and defeat the Noble Indy challenge as it may have proved his class. Instead Baffert sent Restoring Hope to protect Justify and he ran out front uncontested, so his class remains uncertain. That’s hoss racin’, happens all the time, part of the game, I accept it.

Back to the question of class.

Class is measured by how fast the horse ran, whom the horse beat, how he or she beat the opposition particularly in the late stages of deep stretch where the true measures of class are displayed - stamina, endurance, courage, determination and late drive - true grit. Best I can tell, this horse won all of his races, less the Maryland, on the front end uncontested, won the Kentucky and the Maryland on the ease and breeze of the slop and he ran out front uncontested in the NY. In the Maryland when contested by Good Magic, in deep stretch he didn't display any of those true measures of class described above - he couldn't put the opposition away and grind em' into the dirt. If the finish was just a few more yards he loses to lowly Bravazo and Tenfold.

How do Justify’s times compare to those Triple Crown winners that came before him? From a historical perspective how fast did he run the California, the Kentucky, the Maryland and the NY? And, how would you rank Justify when compared to the previous 12 Triple Crown winners?

He is the horse of our time - late developing, lightly raced, highly talented swifty. They get out front and run as fast and as far as their talent and breeding allow. Once these swiftys get out front on the fast or sloppy they're hard to catch, particularly in the Classics because the competition isn't bred with enough stamina to overcome that speed deep stretch. If these types go easy uncontested they're hard to beat. We'll never know their true class because their greed value is found at stud.

How good was Smarty Jones? Afleet Alex? Street Sense? Big Brown? All were recent and highly distinguished three-year-olds. None defeated leading older horses. They were retired prematurely per the contemporary custom, before their genuine class could be established on the track. (Quinn)

As we begin to see the dual-qualifying classic types fade we will no doubt see more swifty types emerge to win the Classics and the Triple Crown. In so doing the value of the Triple Crown will be diluted and another nail will be sunk into the coffin of America’s first and greatest sport.
1000% wrong. Class is when a horse will not be beat when head to head, eyeball to eyeball, and only gets passed briefly when a horse may accelerate on the inside or outside. They may briefly pass but a horse with class always has more gears. If anyone relies on time than MOST often their wagers will fail.
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Old 06-17-2018, 09:16 AM   #26
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1000% wrong. Class is when a horse will not be beat when head to head, eyeball to eyeball, and only gets passed briefly when a horse may accelerate on the inside or outside. They may briefly pass but a horse with class always has more gears. If anyone relies on time than MOST often their wagers will fail.

Remember Secretariat, right . . . when he ran really fast in the Kentucky and won like a machine in the NY - set them records; speed over distance particularly late. Speed and class are inextricably linked, most class horses possess speed but not all speedy horses possess class.

. . . the best horses will normally be fastest, but the fastest horses will not necessarily be best. No contradiction exists. Class and speed will be highly complimentary, but not interchangeable. (Quinn)

Thanks for a reasonable comment rather than an attack as it always makes for constructive discourse.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:27 PM   #27
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The fact you remember their name some 80-90 years later kinda proves their place in history, which was what one person stated, that they would be forgotten shortly, which is stupid.
It proves they are legends, which is different than all time greats.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:29 PM   #28
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The latter almost shattered one of the greatest "curses" known to horse racing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2R0jdPlsw8
Omaha's Euro form is, basically, wildly inconsistent. It's really hard to evaluate. If he had gone back there and won a bunch of races I would feel differently.
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Old 06-17-2018, 01:30 PM   #29
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It proves they are legends, which is different than all time greats.
thats what I said, "their place in history" will not be forgotten quickly, why mix apples and oranges.
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:22 PM   #30
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thats what I said, "their place in history" will not be forgotten quickly, why mix apples and oranges.
The post I was responded to used the term all time great.
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