Beyer or Bris (Speed Figures) One Only?

[therussmeister]

I'm 98.6% sure BRIS is only computer, no human. In theory, that's why I like them. I know exactly what I'm getting when I use their figures. If six weeks ago, I have identified certain situations where their figures are not an accurate predictor of performance, and I have made adjustments reflecting that, I can be sure nobody at BRIS has come around and changed things since then. But as I said in my first response, I have seen no difference in my results using BRIS rather than DRF.

[Tom]

I have heard Ed DeRosa say on ATR that there is a panel that reviews the numbers, and apparently, they will make changes. How often, no idea.
He posts here, maybe he will chime in.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by RunForTheRoses

I would definitely have to say Beyer. I know that a human is reviewing them and not just a computer (not sure if BRIS is just computer generated or not but Beyer and his team have been doing this for years). The Formulator has Moss Pace figs which can give you an idea about pace.

Beyer has multiple associates each dedicated to specific circuits that review and also discuss the tougher days to make figures among themselves. There is also an internal system that monitors every single shipper from every track to every track to ensure that all circuits remain in sync and there is not subtle figure drift over time.

[Flysofree]

I know only one thing for certain.... The speed of downloading Bris PP's is lightening fast compared to the DRF, which is like watching grass grow for me.

[RunForTheRoses]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Beyer has multiple associates each dedicated to specific circuits that review and also discuss the tougher days to make figures among themselves. There is also an internal system that monitors every single shipper from every track to every track to ensure that all circuits remain in sync and there is not subtle figure drift over time.

I had very briefly made my own figures between the close of the Racing Times and the addition of Beyers in the DRF. A rote mechanical approach IMHO is no good as there are days, especially with weather but even when the weather is consistent, when the data is strange. On the Thorograph site there are many posts relating to changing track speed. So re: Beyer vs BRIS I'd much rather have the Beyer team looking over the data as you post.
That said, the gold is when you can find non speed figure reasons to play a horse.

[Robert Goren]

Originally Posted by RunForTheRoses

I had very briefly made my own figures between the close of the Racing Times and the addition of Beyers in the DRF. A rote mechanical approach IMHO is no good as there are days, especially with weather but even when the weather is consistent, when the data is strange. On the Thorograph site there are many posts relating to changing track speed. So re: Beyer vs BRIS I'd much rather have the Beyer team looking over the data as you post.
That said, the gold is when you can find non speed figure reasons to play a horse.

I made my own figures for a while too. I never did get the adjusting part down. I did however know which days they weren't very consistent. I think most figure makers know that too. When we buy them, I just wish they would tell us when those days were. These days when I see numbers for any off track, I try not to include them in my handicapping even though that some off tracks are as consistent as fast tracks. I will add this one thing about putting too much faith in speed figures. Figuring out the daily variant most days is like trying to paint by numbers with cheap water colors.

[Ray]

I would choose beyer because I think that is by a wide margin the speed figures
Most people have access to making it the best one to exploit for the occasional inflated fig but more importantly I like to bet on horses who got a low or very low beyer.

[fmolf]

Originally Posted by Ray

I would choose beyer because I think that is by a wide margin the speed figures
Most people have access to making it the best one to exploit for the occasional inflated fig but more importantly I like to bet on horses who got a low or very low beyer.

I choose bris for a similar reason.....less people use them and their speed #'s in conjunction with their pace #'s have uncovered some nice pace plays for me.Someone else said as well they are much easier to download and print out than drf!...I have begun to experiment with the trackmaster platinum pp's now as you can get them in the pace version and they come with a variant and bias rating for the track as well as a trouble indicator that does not show up on bris pp's

[HUSKER55]

if you put the speed ratings side by side you would not believe the results. Therefore, pick one and stay with it.

However, I gave up using final time figures from anyone and I am doing alot better.

[DeltaLover]

My two cents worth:

I think that the most important question to ask about the quality of a figure,
is, what we really expect from it. What I consider the most important aspect of
a figure is its ability to reflect how fast the horse ran, in absolute values,
with no additional adjustment for racing trouble, the easiness or difficulty of
the pace or the quality of competition, things like these I consider to be the
subject of my handicapping approach which will receive raw data transforming
them to an opinion.

I am a firm believer that the most important handicapping factors are those
related with pace and timing, an opinion that of course is dominant among the
majority of the horse players. I also believe that exceptions to this rule are
what really makes the game interesting from a betting perspective and my whole
handicapping approach relies around the discovery of probable anomalies that
might develop during a race, causing a horse to reach a new peak. The essence of
the betting game is to predict huge variations in the performance of a horse
that will deceive the crowd who is constantly trying to pick the winner,
overestimating the value of the "repeat".

Identifying the hints that are hidden in the figures pointing to a radical
transformation of a runner, has both scientific and artistic aspects and
mastering this approach is way more important than the specific methodology used
to express the timings of the previous races. Of course for this approach we not
only need the final timing (like beyer for example) but we also need a pace
figure to improve our understating of the capability of a horse. I think that
this pair of figures (pace and final) is enough and I see any additional
figures as not necessary. (An example of an approach that overuses figures and
their derivatives is the Sartin methodology...)

Two of the best "figures" I have found during the years are CJ's and Equibase.

As far as CJ's figures are going, I have had a few conversations with Thask
about them and we both agree that they are really well thought and present a
great reflection of the actual timing of the race and I highly recommend them.

Personally, I use Equibase, more for practical reasons, as I have very easy
access to them from the Daily Program plus I have detected great similarity to
my custom figures, to the extend of replacing all the hard homework needed with
a prefabricated solution with the same results.

As far as beyers, I think they are great for what they measure but as said
before they only describe one piece of the puzzle.

Bris speed figures are also great and in conjunction of their pace figures can
serve the purpose really well..

Ragozin and Thorographs I think they are both overpriced without any
significant advantage over the competition.

[Fingal]

Originally Posted by HUSKER55

if you put the speed ratings side by side you would not believe the results. Therefore, pick one and stay with it.

Just for giggles I pick up a discarded DRF when leaving the track & compare the figs to Bris. Personally I use Bris because of the pace component, but only to gain a feeling of an improving or a declining cycle, not for an absolute number.

[fmolf]

Delta....do you use the trackmaster platinum's?...If so i was wondering how you like their pace figures?...i have begun to experiment with them they offer a pace pp with bias notations and was wondering if you found them to be accurate?...Also how effective are their pace ranking where each horse gets a number for early and late pace and gets a ranking,similar to their power rating.Which would you say is better Bris or Trackmaster plat.? I have only begun to use trackmaster and the jury is still out for me.Ihave been using Bris for years.

[Dave Schwartz]

Looking at a race through a speed figure is like looking at a room through a keyhole.

If you can do this with both eyes you have satisfied the condition of having a narrow mind.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by fmolf

Delta....do you use the trackmaster platinum's?...If so i was wondering how you like their pace figures?...i have begun to experiment with them they offer a pace pp with bias notations and was wondering if you found them to be accurate?...Also how effective are their pace ranking where each horse gets a number for early and late pace and gets a ranking,similar to their power rating.Which would you say is better Bris or Trackmaster plat.? I have only begun to use trackmaster and the jury is still out for me.Ihave been using Bris for years.

Last year I spent some time evaluating trackmaster concluding that I do not
really need it, at least for now. For the last six months or so, I am using
E-base figs as they appear on the Daily Program and I am satisfied with the
results so I am not planning to change anytime soon.. More than this, I find the
data representation of the TM to be better than Bris given the advantages of XML
over plain-old csv formats (json would had been even better of course).

[Tom]

Looking at a race through a speed figure is like looking at a room through a keyhole.

What's it like looking at one without them?