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Old 10-16-2017, 04:19 PM   #166
NY Racing Fan
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Originally Posted by Jeff P View Post
Here they are touting their "successful meet" because of the big average payouts...

But wouldn't their average payouts be even bigger without the takeout increase?

The irony.




-jp

.

Jeff, as a high volume bettor and HANA supporter, I applaud your efforts. It isn't easy to go on a crusade like this without assistance from some of the more influential (NTRA) horse racing organizations. I am absolutely supportive of the Keeneland boycott.

However, I don't agree with your leadership in a couple of areas. Firstly, you have implored your supporters to boycott for Keeneland for just this month's meet. Doesn't this encourage Keeneland's braintrust to think that they just have to survive the handle decline for this meet? Won't they think that people's short memories come into play and will "forget" about the takeout increase once the Spring Meet rolls around?

Also, why not constantly remind your supporters via email blasts about the tracks with high takeout/poor value when their respective meets open? Your track rating chart on your site is fantastic and has tremendously valuable and detailed information. Unfortunately, I don't think that enough people know that it exists.

Takeout couldn't be a more vital topic to bettors & the future health of horse racing. The handle numbers that are coming out of this short Keeneland meet are crucial. Everyone is watching.
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Old 10-16-2017, 05:41 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by NY Racing Fan View Post
Jeff, as a high volume bettor and HANA supporter, I applaud your efforts. It isn't easy to go on a crusade like this without assistance from some of the more influential (NTRA) horse racing organizations. I am absolutely supportive of the Keeneland boycott.

However, I don't agree with your leadership in a couple of areas. Firstly, you have implored your supporters to boycott for Keeneland for just this month's meet. Doesn't this encourage Keeneland's braintrust to think that they just have to survive the handle decline for this meet? Won't they think that people's short memories come into play and will "forget" about the takeout increase once the Spring Meet rolls around?

Also, why not constantly remind your supporters via email blasts about the tracks with high takeout/poor value when their respective meets open? Your track rating chart on your site is fantastic and has tremendously valuable and detailed information. Unfortunately, I don't think that enough people know that it exists.

Takeout couldn't be a more vital topic to bettors & the future health of horse racing. The handle numbers that are coming out of this short Keeneland meet are crucial. Everyone is watching.
I have to agree w/this and the boycott should be revisited in the Spring
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Old 10-16-2017, 05:53 PM   #168
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http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-ha...lines-leveling

Bob Elliston, Keeneland’s vice president of racing and sales, said Monday that the handle figures do not yet clearly demonstrate that the boycott and lower payouts are having a dramatic impact on handle, noting that of the eight days of the meet so far, four have posted lower handle numbers than the corresponding date last year, three have posted higher handle numbers, and the other was “essentially a wash,” in reference to an insignificant decline on the opening Friday, Oct. 6. On one of the days in which handle was up, Keeneland ran 10 races, rather than nine.

“How do you make any single-value causal relationship with that data?” Elliston said. “There are a lot of variables out there, although I will say that there is some number, some part of that 8.6 [decline] that can be attributed” to the takeout increase.
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:09 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Afleet View Post
http://www.drf.com/news/keeneland-ha...lines-leveling

Bob Elliston, Keeneland’s vice president of racing and sales, said Monday that the handle figures do not yet clearly demonstrate that the boycott and lower payouts are having a dramatic impact on handle, noting that of the eight days of the meet so far, four have posted lower handle numbers than the corresponding date last year, three have posted higher handle numbers, and the other was “essentially a wash,” in reference to an insignificant decline on the opening Friday, Oct. 6. On one of the days in which handle was up, Keeneland ran 10 races, rather than nine.

“How do you make any single-value causal relationship with that data?” Elliston said. “There are a lot of variables out there, although I will say that there is some number, some part of that 8.6 [decline] that can be attributed” to the takeout increase.

I have two days close to break even though slightly negative (the one at 0.0 was really -0.02% down), four days clearly down, and two days clearly up. The down days are much more down than the up days are up. Not sure how he figured three days are higher.

Code:
10/15	- 7.0%
10/14	- 0.5%
10/13	+ 2.6%
10/12	+ 7.2%
10/11	-20.7%
10/8	-30.9%
10/7	-14.4%
10/6	- 0.0%
This Friday should be an interesting comparison if dry. It was sloppy and all but one race off the turf last year.

Last edited by cj; 10-16-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:37 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by NY Racing Fan View Post
Jeff, as a high volume bettor and HANA supporter, I applaud your efforts. It isn't easy to go on a crusade like this without assistance from some of the more influential (NTRA) horse racing organizations. I am absolutely supportive of the Keeneland boycott.

However, I don't agree with your leadership in a couple of areas. Firstly, you have implored your supporters to boycott for Keeneland for just this month's meet. Doesn't this encourage Keeneland's braintrust to think that they just have to survive the handle decline for this meet? Won't they think that people's short memories come into play and will "forget" about the takeout increase once the Spring Meet rolls around?

Also, why not constantly remind your supporters via email blasts about the tracks with high takeout/poor value when their respective meets open? Your track rating chart on your site is fantastic and has tremendously valuable and detailed information. Unfortunately, I don't think that enough people know that it exists.

Takeout couldn't be a more vital topic to bettors & the future health of horse racing. The handle numbers that are coming out of this short Keeneland meet are crucial. Everyone is watching.
This is really insidious for any NYRA fanboy to support the boycott. I find NYRA venue with Chad and his boys to be most corrupt place for any bettor. You mean to tell me that Chad Brown's uncoupled entries and his legions of dependent jocks and brothers riding in tandem aren't a BIGGER threat to racing integrity and thus avoid than a race track raising its fees by a token amount., but spotless racing?
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:01 PM   #171
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Everyone is up and they are talking about how they are breaking even on a few days...cant make this stuff up.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:03 PM   #172
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This is really insidious for any NYRA fanboy to support the boycott. I find NYRA venue with Chad and his boys to be most corrupt place for any bettor. You mean to tell me that Chad Brown's uncoupled entries and his legions of dependent jocks and brothers riding in tandem aren't a BIGGER threat to racing integrity and thus avoid than a race track raising its fees by a token amount., but spotless racing?
Spotless...

He said spotless.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:27 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by linrom1 View Post
This is really insidious for any NYRA fanboy to support the boycott. I find NYRA venue with Chad and his boys to be most corrupt place for any bettor. You mean to tell me that Chad Brown's uncoupled entries and his legions of dependent jocks and brothers riding in tandem aren't a BIGGER threat to racing integrity and thus avoid than a race track raising its fees by a token amount., but spotless racing?
Many people are concerned about the integrity of the game in many jurisdictions/racetracks. But Chad Brown being crooked?? Cmon. You can do better than that. The Ortiz brothers riding in tandem??? These are the issues that concern you?
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:16 AM   #174
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I have two days close to break even though slightly negative (the one at 0.0 was really -0.02% down), four days clearly down, and two days clearly up. The down days are much more down than the up days are up. Not sure how he figured three days are higher.

Code:
10/15	- 7.0%
10/14	- 0.5%
10/13	+ 2.6%
10/12	+ 7.2%
10/11	-20.7%
10/8	-30.9%
10/7	-14.4%
10/6	- 0.0%
This Friday should be an interesting comparison if dry. It was sloppy and all but one race off the turf last year.
I can see the suits at Keenland thinking this will blow over and wait it out. Any real chance at reform will probablyrequire a Spring boycott. Hope I am wrong.
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:32 AM   #175
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I’m all in with this boycott, it’s a great thing. But I just can’t boycott Keenland forever. To try to extend it would be a mistake and dilute the power of future boycotts IMO. Keenland ‘s rake is comparable to the other major tracks; it doesn’t make sense to punish them just because they used to have a lower takeout. From here on out, we should use the HANA Track Ratings to decide where to spend our money.

We made our point and hopefully it will be a warning to other tracks. I applaud HANA for being proactive and leading this, and I just made a donation to them. I’ll follow other boycotts that they feel are necessary, even if they think just boycotting a certain bet at a track is appropriate, for a certain period of time.

I know I’m in risk of giving solace to the enemy, but I think we all knew we were “up against it.”
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Old 10-17-2017, 09:58 AM   #176
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Would not want to be in a Foxhole with you.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:43 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Redboard View Post
I’m all in with this boycott, it’s a great thing. But I just can’t boycott Keenland forever. To try to extend it would be a mistake and dilute the power of future boycotts IMO. Keenland ‘s rake is comparable to the other major tracks; it doesn’t make sense to punish them just because they used to have a lower takeout. From here on out, we should use the HANA Track Ratings to decide where to spend our money.

We made our point and hopefully it will be a warning to other tracks. I applaud HANA for being proactive and leading this, and I just made a donation to them. I’ll follow other boycotts that they feel are necessary, even if they think just boycotting a certain bet at a track is appropriate, for a certain period of time.

I know I’m in risk of giving solace to the enemy, but I think we all knew we were “up against it.”
What good is a boycott if it doesn't result in the desired change? If handle winds up significantly down and takeout doesn't change, why go back?
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:21 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Redboard View Post
I’m all in with this boycott, it’s a great thing. But I just can’t boycott Keenland forever. To try to extend it would be a mistake and dilute the power of future boycotts IMO. Keenland ‘s rake is comparable to the other major tracks; it doesn’t make sense to punish them just because they used to have a lower takeout. From here on out, we should use the HANA Track Ratings to decide where to spend our money.

We made our point and hopefully it will be a warning to other tracks. I applaud HANA for being proactive and leading this, and I just made a donation to them. I’ll follow other boycotts that they feel are necessary, even if they think just boycotting a certain bet at a track is appropriate, for a certain period of time.

I know I’m in risk of giving solace to the enemy, but I think we all knew we were “up against it.”
This is EXACTLY how racetracks project that the bettors (consumers) will respond to takeout increases. Short term reluctance and long term acceptance. If this is true and I am a competing track operator, I can live with this and increase takeout to the maximum levels within my jurisdiction as well.

Yes, you can argue that the Keeneland takeout is comparable to others and their product is superior to most but you have to use the most powerful voice that you can to shout out that takeout increases in this environment is unacceptable and that you demand to be heard!

Reading posts like this makes me feel like people like me are simply outnumbered and I fear that tracks are correct in their assumption that the betting public are suckers and will eat whatever they are fed.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:48 PM   #179
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Reading posts like this makes me feel like people like me are simply outnumbered and I fear that tracks are correct in their assumption that the betting public are suckers and will eat whatever they are fed.
Therein lies the real problem. If players took one entire weekend off.......nobody bets anything, anywhere......what do you suppose would happen?

From the early days of HANA discussions on this board
This has been the problem.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:28 PM   #180
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This is EXACTLY how racetracks project that the bettors (consumers) will respond to takeout increases. Short term reluctance and long term acceptance. If this is true and I am a competing track operator, I can live with this and increase takeout to the maximum levels within my jurisdiction as well.

Yes, you can argue that the Keeneland takeout is comparable to others and their product is superior to most but you have to use the most powerful voice that you can to shout out that takeout increases in this environment is unacceptable and that you demand to be heard!

Reading posts like this makes me feel like people like me are simply outnumbered and I fear that tracks are correct in their assumption that the betting public are suckers and will eat whatever they are fed.
The tracks have been at this game for a very long time...and they understand the horseplayers pretty well. We horseplayers like to bitch and moan...but the truth is that the vast majority of us aren't motivated enough by the takeout when we place our wagers...and this renders our boycott threats rather ineffective. Case in point: Parx and Indiana Grand are running against each other...and Parx has a 30% trifecta takeout, while Indiana Grand's trifecta takeout is "only" 21.5%. You wanna guess which of these two tracks does more trifecta business? And it isn't even CLOSE! The other tracks see this "apathy" of the players...and it tells them all that they need to know about "horseplayer psychology".

When it comes right down to it...we horseplayers have no-one to blame but OURSELVES when it comes to the game's controversial issues.
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Last edited by thaskalos; 10-17-2017 at 03:32 PM.
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