Religious

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Not even if you pinched yourself really hard to see if you're alive?

Maybe I'm not alive. Maybe I'm a computer simulation. Maybe Yahweh is a kid playing a video game and I'm the game.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Maybe I'm not alive. Maybe I'm a computer simulation. Maybe Yahweh is a kid playing a video game and I'm the game.

And one that doesn't work too swell to boot. Maybe you're just an illusion.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The real issue is that this [supposed] believer in Jesus doesn't believe Him. It's no wonder that he wouldn't forthrightly tell me what his interpretation of Jn 11:26.

PA is right. Just because I don't believe like you do and interpret biblical phrases like you, I can't possibly be a believer of Christ in your mind. Everything I say must be delusional while your views must be pristine. That is the ultimate definition of ego and every religion and spiritual path acknowledges ego as illusion and the single most powerful entity that separates us from God.

So because of your spiritual ego boxcar, you are empty of any real substance regarding what you say. It's all empty words designed to please your ego. Not by my definition but by the universal definition of entering into God consciousness, here or in the afterlife.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And one that doesn't work too swell to boot. Maybe you're just an illusion.

Maybe. On the other hand maybe you are the illusion.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Jess Hawsen Arown

You speak truth, except for the part requiring science to disprove something. SCIENCE CANNOT DISPROVE ANYTHING. Science can only prove things based on current evidence. It is the basic tenet of all skeptics that EXTRAORIDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF. In the future, there may be real evidence that a being, or beings, beyond our 21st comprehension is directly responsible for the universe in which we reside. Interestingly, the more we learn about the power of the computer, the more we realize that certain traits such as Godly omnipotence mocked by atheists as impossible, are not so far fetched. We still have much to learn.

But now there is no proof. Belief requires faith in the unprovable teachings of the organized religion assigned at your birth (some choose to change beliefs). Believe or do not believe. It is your choice.

I should clarify that my position here is not religious but spiritual. Regarding "faith" even Jesus had his doubts of faith. Once in Gethsemane and once on the cross when he said "why has thy forsaken me". But Jesus later regained his faith by saying "into your hands I command my spirit".

It is a beautiful example of "surrendering" to that which is. First he fights it then accepts it. This "faith" is not blind but liberating. It is an example to everyone that when things go wrong in your life, you can say "why me Lord" and fight it, or surrender to what is. And everyone who has been there, done that, knows that in the end you will be forced to accept what happens to you whether or not you believe in "faith". Its just that the people who have "faith" when things go wrong and accept what is happening have a much more favorable outcome from an unpleasant situation. This is what "faith" is about. It's not about believing blindly. It's a practical "tool".

As far as science validating this, science already has in one sense. People who have a positive attitude as opposed to a negative one when dealing with difficulties generally have a better outcome. They don't call it "faith", but you should realize that those with a positive attitude already have a foundation in something that all will be alright, which is the same as those with "faith" in something they call God. It really doesn't matter what you call the object of belief. Its the same thing.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I should clarify that my position here is not religious but spiritual. Regarding "faith" even Jesus had his doubts of faith. Once in Gethsemane and once on the cross when he said "why has thy forsaken me". But Jesus later regained his faith by saying "into your hands I command my spirit".

It is a beautiful example of "surrendering" to that which is. First he fights it then accepts it. This "faith" is not blind but liberating. It is an example to everyone that when things go wrong in your life, you can say "why me Lord" and fight it, or surrender to what is. And everyone who has been there, done that, knows that in the end you will be forced to accept what happens to you whether or not you believe in "faith". Its just that the people who have "faith" when things go wrong and accept what is happening have a much more favorable outcome from an unpleasant situation. This is what "faith" is about. It's not about believing blindly. It's a practical "tool".

As far as science validating this, science already has in one sense. People who have a positive attitude as opposed to a negative one when dealing with difficulties generally have a better outcome. They don't call it "faith", but you should realize that those with a positive attitude already have a foundation in something that all will be alright, which is the same as those with "faith" in something they call God. It really doesn't matter what you call the object of belief. Its the same thing.

If Jesus ever lacked faith for a moment, then he was a sinner like you and me. ("Whatever is not of faith is SIN".) In which case, you don't have to worry about "believing in him" since his death would be meaningless -- both then and now.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Maybe. On the other hand maybe you are the illusion.

Nah...I figured that out a long time ago. After I pinched myself and then stuck myself to see if I bled. Try it sometime. You might learn something.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

PA is right. Just because I don't believe like you do and interpret biblical phrases like you, I can't possibly be a believer of Christ in your mind. Everything I say must be delusional while your views must be pristine. That is the ultimate definition of ego and every religion and spiritual path acknowledges ego as illusion and the single most powerful entity that separates us from God.

So because of your spiritual ego boxcar, you are empty of any real substance regarding what you say. It's all empty words designed to please your ego. Not by my definition but by the universal definition of entering into God consciousness, here or in the afterlife.

Since you brought up the subject of "empty of any real substance", why didn't you, in your own words, give me your interpretation of Jn 11:25-26?

As far as you being a true disciple of Christ, you are not, in my opinion. The only two things you love in this world are yourself and the idea of love. A true disciple of Christ, however -- one who has genuine faith -- practically expresses that faith through love to God and neighbor. A true Christian's life is filled with good works.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
NASB

But you have no love for Jesus, for if you had any, you would truly follow him by keeping his commandments.

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
NASB

But you have no love for God or for neighbor, which are the two greatest commandments of all. But this is precisely why God saves his people, so that his elect may keep his commandments and walk in his ways and do good works. These things are how Christians manifest their light and salvation to the world.

1 Cor 7:19
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
NASB

So, you see your own words that you have spoken in the past condemn you. They betray your real heart of unbelief, for you have stated that the bible is an outdated, outmoded, heavily edited book, largely untrustworthy -- all of which makes the keeping of its rules and regulations (a/k/a commandments of God) unnecessary. Yet, Jesus didn't think that way. In fact, Jesus described people like you to a tee.

John 14:24a
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words;
NASB

This describes you perfectly. You think you're a "god", putting yourself on the same level with Jesus and giving you the prerogative to approach God on your own terms. But I tell you the truth: You are nothing more than an idolater and unless you repent of your idolatry you will suffer the second death for all eternity. You will surely die again after you die physically! The deceitfulness of sin has deceived you into believing that you are something that you are not.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

After I pinched myself and then stuck myself to see if I bled.

If you are a computer simulation then all that shows is that your programmer paid a lot attention to details.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Since you brought up the subject of "empty of any real substance", why didn't you, in your own words, give me your interpretation of Jn 11:25-26?

As far as you being a true disciple of Christ, you are not, in my opinion. The only two things you love in this world are yourself and the idea of love. A true disciple of Christ, however -- one who has genuine faith -- practically expresses that faith through love to God and neighbor. A true Christian's life is filled with good works.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
NASB

But you have no love for Jesus, for if you had any, you would truly follow him by keeping his commandments.

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
NASB

But you have no love for God or for neighbor, which are the two greatest commandments of all. But this is precisely why God saves his people, so that his elect may keep his commandments and walk in his ways and do good works. These things are how Christians manifest their light and salvation to the world.

1 Cor 7:19
19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
NASB

So, you see your own words that you have spoken in the past condemn you. They betray your real heart of unbelief, for you have stated that the bible is an outdated, outmoded, heavily edited book, largely untrustworthy -- all of which makes the keeping of its rules and regulations (a/k/a commandments of God) unnecessary. Yet, Jesus didn't think that way. In fact, Jesus described people like you to a tee.

John 14:24a
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words;
NASB

This describes you perfectly. You think you're a "god", putting yourself on the same level with Jesus and giving you the prerogative to approach God on your own terms. But I tell you the truth: You are nothing more than an idolater and unless you repent of your idolatry you will suffer the second death for all eternity. You will surely die again after you die physically! The deceitfulness of sin has deceived you into believing that you are something that you are not.

What difference is there between you and an Isis follower? Zero,none. Yes I know you don't go killing people but you have the same line of religious thought. It's your interpretation way or the highway. If you were given guns and a cause and a remote location and an environment to foster your "way" you would commit the same crimes. Because you preach hate. Isis members say those Muslims who do not follow their "way" of Islam will be killed and they have been true to their word. You say those that don't follow your "way" will rot in hell. There is no difference. Of course both of you are psychotic.

The reason you and Isis are psychotic is because you miss the main teaching in both religions and that is love. You cannot put anything else before love or it loses its integrity. If hate is the priority then it becomes a religion of hatred disguised as something more benign.

When you are jealous or hateful that another person has Christ in their heart (me) and you try to deny that,you are the receiver of that ill will, not me. It is your own hatred. When I meditate, I experience the love, the "heaven within" that Christ talks about. When I ask for something I ask like Jesus said to ask. Ask like you have already received it and it shall be granted to you. When I have an issue with someone Jesus words come through "love your enemies". Suddenly I am free of the burden of conflict with that person. Jesus's words are for practice in the here and now, not the afterlife. The afterlife will take care of itself.

You need to look more on the positive side of what Jesus was saying. His words are wiser than you know. You are focusing on all this negativity and I seriously doubt Jesus or God talks like that. That sounds like pissed off people who are stuck in the lowest level of spirituality which is stupidity. They are certainly not wise enough to say the positive and remarkable things Jesus said.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

What difference is there between you and an Isis follower? Zero,none. Yes I know you don't go killing people but you have the same line of religious thought. It's your interpretation way or the highway. If you were given guns and a cause and a remote location and an environment to foster your "way" you would commit the same crimes. Because you preach hate. Isis members say those Muslims who do not follow their "way" of Islam will be killed and they have been true to their word. You say those that don't follow your "way" will rot in hell. There is no difference. Of course both of you are psychotic.

The reason you and Isis are psychotic is because you miss the main teaching in both religions and that is love. You cannot put anything else before love or it loses its integrity. If hate is the priority then it becomes a religion of hatred disguised as something more benign.

When you are jealous or hateful that another person has Christ in their heart (me) and you try to deny that,you are the receiver of that ill will, not me. It is your own hatred. When I meditate, I experience the love, the "heaven within" that Christ talks about. When I ask for something I ask like Jesus said to ask. Ask like you have already received it and it shall be granted to you. When I have an issue with someone Jesus words come through "love your enemies". Suddenly I am free of the burden of conflict with that person. Jesus's words are for practice in the here and now, not the afterlife. The afterlife will take care of itself.

You need to look more on the positive side of what Jesus was saying. His words are wiser than you know. You are focusing on all this negativity and I seriously doubt Jesus or God talks like that. That sounds like pissed off people who are stuck in the lowest level of spirituality which is stupidity. They are certainly not wise enough to say the positive and remarkable things Jesus said.

Your own words deny that you have Christ in your heart. If you truly had Christ in your heart then you would love him. And if you love him, you would express that love in very concrete ways to other people in Christ and to your neighbor and keep Christ's commandments. But you have no love for Christ, for his Father, for other Christians or for your neighbor. As stated previously, you love yourself because you think you're a "god" and you love the idea of love. You have not one single mark of a Christian. In fact, I venture to say you would be loathe to even call yourself "Christian".

[Hank]

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hail to King Ignorance! Man has supposedly been on this planet for gazillions of years ...

About 200,000 years, give or take. Mitochondrial Eve lived 100,000 to 200,000 years ago. Every human alive today descends from her. Our use of tools dates back around 50,000 years max. Agriculture, which is what really put us at the top of the food chain, is around 12,000 years old.

Originally Posted by boxcar

... and he's no closer to knowing anything of real substance than we crawled out of the primordial slime.

It was not slime. It was soup. A solution of amino acids and other organic compounds. It may have tasted good by our modern standards. We did not "crawl out of" the soup. The soup became us. We are the soup.

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'm surprised that by now all mankind, by the very least, doesn't have an official day to celebrate skepticism and ignorance.

Skepticism is not ignorance. Skepticism is another path to knowledge. Would we be less ignorant today if Fleischmann and Pons had not been peer reviewed? If some scientists, myself included, had not been skeptical about F&P would we be driving around in atomic powered cars today? No, we would not!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Actor:

Let's now turn to our NDE discussion. I did not post the two studies to convince you of the reality of consciousness surviving physical death. My posting was to clarify that your original claim about well settled science and death.

First, I objected to your opinion saying the question is open, by citing NDE research. You objected raising the hallucination objection. I countered with studies involving the blind. Yes, I believe the studies were peer reviewed, and published in The Journal of Near Death Experiences. Also, other NDE studies have been published in the European Medical Journal, Lancet.

Yes, the second study confirmed the findings of the first study regarding the blind. The second study solely was focused on the blind. People who were blind from birth and people who lost sight, in other ways. Per the study hallucinations were ruled out due to, verifiable data. Data which they reported seeing from out of body experiences during the NDE. Data they could not visually see before and then after the NDE.

Is it conclusive evidence of the consciousness surviving after death? No. Does it mean the question is still scientifically open? Yes.

In The Soul Fallacy writer Julian Musolino gives the following four reasons to reject the claim that NDEs provide evidence for an afterlife:

• There is no body of credible evidence for apparently nonphysical veridical NDE perception that would force scientists to conclude that human consciousness can exist and operate independently from the body.
• There is nothing extraordinary about the experimental manifestations of NDEs.
• The phenomenon isn't restricted to brushes with impending death.
• There is overwhelming evidence that conscious experience arises from physical activity in the brain.

Maria and the shoe. A woman named Maria suffered two heart attacks and had an an out-of-body experience during which her nonphysical self was allegedly able to spot a tennis shoe on the third floor window ledge at the hospital where she is being treated. Kimberly Clark went looking for the shoe and able to find it. Given the location of the shoe it would have been impossible for Maria to spot it from her room unless her face was pressed against the window and who would do that while recovering from a second heart attack?

Researchers Hayden Ebbern and Sean Mulligan reviewed the details of Clark's report, interviewed Clark herself and inspected the hospital and its surroundings. They published a paper demonstrating that Clark's report had been embellished and that Maria could easily have spotted the shoe without leaving her body.

If you want to check this out yourself Musolino's book is well documented: 18 pages of citations and an 8 page bibliography. Have fun.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

About 200,000 years, give or take. Mitochondrial Eve lived 100,000 to 200,000 years ago. Every human alive today descends from her. Our use of tools dates back around 50,000 years max. Agriculture, which is what really put us at the top of the food chain, is around 12,000 years old.
It was not slime. It was soup. A solution of amino acids and other organic compounds. It may have tasted good by our modern standards. We did not "crawl out of" the soup. The soup became us. We are the soup.
Skepticism is not ignorance. Skepticism is another path to knowledge. Would we be less ignorant today if Fleischmann and Pons had not been peer reviewed? If some scientists, myself included, had not been skeptical about F&P would we be driving around in atomic powered cars today? No, we would not!

But the Bible is the much quicker, surer and trustworthy path to real knowledge -- the kind of knowledge that tell us about our Creator, ourselves, why he created us, our purpose in life and how and why mankind went wrong and what God has done in Christ to remedy that situation.