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Old 05-14-2015, 08:57 AM   #106
davew
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most tracks are now with net pool pricing, taking into account track takeouts of bet source and foreign exchange. manually calculating is not possible without knowing sources of bets and their takeout/exchange rate

http://blog.twinspires.com/2011/03/n...g-revised.html


ribjib, most tracks have some sort of automated teller, allowing you to place your own bets. These are funded by winning tickets or cash vouchers purchased at mutual teller windows. Putting down100K would take awhile to count and the paperwork for large cash transactions.

What would limit you to 3 races per card?
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Old 05-14-2015, 12:04 PM   #107
ribjig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davew
What would limit you to 3 races per card?
Thanks for sane response!
As posted earlier, considering:
a. one must be at track
b. airfare, lodging, meals, & other expenses of getting to tracks nationwide
c. one probably wants minimum of 2 or 3 negative-pool-market-maker
races per track visit
d. so 2 or 3 races minimum with anticipated odds-on heavy favorite
& no more than, say, 10 entries per race, with all other entries anticipated
being longshots, say, ?6?/1 or higher
e. these perfect proportional storm conditions (hopefully) show up
2-3 times weekly, or 2.5 x 2.5 = ~5 bettable events per week nationwide...?
(preference for $2.20 show minimums, with larger bankroll one might be
willing to make negative pools more often at smaller tracks, knowing it
is very unlikely with last moment betting, that someone will come in behind
with very big show-place bet on longshot...)

Those with closed minds calling OP "troll", ruining thread for truly interested:
no worries, all future posts by OP will be ONLY
in response to sane & or mathematical comments...
no more energy devoted to educating The Baffled...
__________________
DISAGREE
WITH WHAT
I SAID?
THEN YOU
MUST REREAD
THE THREAD...

Last edited by ribjig; 05-14-2015 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:02 PM   #108
Half Smoke
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Formula for Guaranteed Win in Extreme Minus Pool

very interesting (to me).it's very rare but it does happen. found a 1995 column by Andrew Beyer claiming you can guarantee a win in a minus show pool when the big horse has 96.6% (my calculation) of the money in the pool bet on it.

a couple of points:

because of the change to net pool pricing from standard pool pricing when the article was written the bettor gains. in Beyer's article the other 2 horses only paid $2.10 when the big horse showed. Bellafina created a minus pool at Santa Anita on 2/9, she showed and the other 2 horses paid $2.40 and $3.20 because of net pool pricing.

But the more interesting point is that Beyer is actually wrong. You can't guarantee a win because if 2 horses are longshots in the show pool and they don't come in you may not have a profit. Unless you could make some pretty difficult calculations from looking at the totals in the show pools very late, and make different size bets on the entries and they still might not be 100% accurate.

here is his formula:


"While the big plungers load up on a horse such as Cigar, they create the chance for other players to guarantee a profit in the same race. Anyone who seeks to do so must understand how to calculate show payoffs:

1. From the total show pool, first deduct the track's "takeout" -- which in New York is 15 percent.

2. Subtract from the remainder the total amount of money bet on the first three finishers. What is left is the profit that will be paid to winning ticket holders.

3. Divide this figure by three. This is the amount that will be distributed in profit to ticket holders on each of the top three finishers.

4. To calculate each horse's odds in the show pool, divide the amount bet on him into the figure in Step 3.

Suppose, for simplicity's sake, that in a six-horse field the show betting looks like this:

* Cigar $1,450,000

* Horse A $10,000

* Horse B $10,000

* Horse C $10,000

* Horse D $10,000

* Horse E $10,000

* Total pool $1,500,000.

We start by subtracting the track's 15 percent takeout from the total pool, which leaves $1,275,000. If Cigar finishes in the money, there won't be enough money in the pot to pay all the winners, so the track has to make up the difference -- what is called a minus pool. Therefore, each horse returns the minimum $2.10.

But what if Cigar finishes out of the money, with A, B and C running 1-2-3? We subtract the $30,000 bet on them from $1,275,000, leaving $1,245,000.

Dividing this figure by three, we find that $415,000 will be paid in profit to the bettors on each of the top three finishers.

We divide the $10,000 bet on an individual horse into the $415,000, and find that the horse will pay odds of 41.5 to 1 in the show pool. A single ticket returns a profit of $83 for $2, plus the original $2 bet -- a whopping $85 show price.


If we bet $2 to show on Cigar's five rivals in this example, we would invest $10 and collect three $85 show payoffs -- a net profit of $245 if Cigar finishes out of the money. By betting just a little bit less than this amount on Cigar, we will have a profit no matter what happens. Suppose we play the race this way:

* Cigar $230

* Horse A $2

* Horse B $2

* Horse C $2

* Horse D $2

* Horse E $2

* Total $240. If Cigar finishes in the money, we collect our wager on him plus 5 percent, or $241.50. We also get a pair of $2.10 payoffs on the other top two finishers, for a total return of $245.70. That's a profit of more than 2 percent on our investment. If the favorite finishes out of the money, we do even better. This may not sound exciting, but when U.S. treasury bonds are paying annual interest of less than 6 percent, there is nothing wrong with making a certain 2 or 3 percent in a few hours."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.5fa8e6046615

Last edited by Half Smoke; 03-14-2019 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:34 PM   #109
davew
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It is my understanding that the 25 year old loophole described by Beyer has been partially closed. Now rather than the originating track covering negative pools, the source of the bets causing the negative pool does. Beyer himself described having an ADW account closed because he was using it for just large show bets.


There is a bridge jumper situation that I have seen occur a few times in the past. It comes on the first race back for a WINNER of a Breeders Cup race after a lay-off of 3+ months. These horses are frequently in races that are just tighteners for something bigger later on. The horse is very valuable and mid-late winter sometimes have off tracks. Any bad step or traffic situation and the jockey slows down, while everyone else in the race is trying to beat him. Good situation for huge show pay-offs.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:10 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davew View Post
It is my understanding that the 25 year old loophole described by Beyer has been partially closed. Now rather than the originating track covering negative pools, the source of the bets causing the negative pool does. Beyer himself described having an ADW account closed because he was using it for just large show bets.


There is a bridge jumper situation that I have seen occur a few times in the past. It comes on the first race back for a WINNER of a Breeders Cup race after a lay-off of 3+ months. These horses are frequently in races that are just tighteners for something bigger later on. The horse is very valuable and mid-late winter sometimes have off tracks. Any bad step or traffic situation and the jockey slows down, while everyone else in the race is trying to beat him. Good situation for huge show pay-offs.
Breeders Cup horses in general are usually good bet-againsts in their first race back. Even if they win, they're usually 2-5 in that tuneup race anyway so you don't lose out on much.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:29 PM   #111
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the West Virginia tracks at Charlestown and Mountaineer have regulations requiring a minimum $2.20 payout or 10% profit.

this attracts a lot of jumpers and a lot of opportunities to bet against

this is a twitter feed that tracks opportunities for the jumper and those who want to bet against the big horse



https://twitter.com/bridgejumper?lang=en
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:52 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Half Smoke View Post
very interesting (to me).it's very rare but it does happen. found a 1995 column by Andrew Beyer claiming you can guarantee a win in a minus show pool when the big horse has 96.6%

Twas much easier to guarantee a profit in the show pool in the 7th race at Portland Meadows on January 3, 1979.

No time-consuming calculations needed, and a minimum $2.20 return.
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