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Old 05-06-2008, 07:31 AM   #1
john del riccio
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Moss Interview - Very interesting

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/...goryId=2378529
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:54 AM   #2
shanta
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Thanks John.

Very informative piece coming from a man who has much respect in the industry.

I hope they do get rid of the whip. As far as race day meds being allowed only in North America while the rest of world does not what else is new??

Anyone wanting a blueprint for success simply has to look at what goes on here in racing and do the opposite. From Adw's to signal wars to race day meds etc etc
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:14 AM   #3
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I sure couldn't agree with him more on the breeding problems. We are breeding stallions that would never have hit the shed if it had not been for meds.

The main paper is AR is now calling for an end to the whip.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:21 AM   #4
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He made some good points, but I sure wish he hadn't began with "PETA didn't go far enough".
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:39 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russowen77
I sure couldn't agree with him more on the breeding problems. We are breeding stallions that would never have hit the shed if it had not been for meds.

The main paper is AR is now calling for an end to the whip.
All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

jdl

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Old 05-06-2008, 11:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by jonnielu
All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.

jdl
You and I sure disagree there. I think the new breeding is our main problem.

Race day meds contribute much to that as we are breeding horses that should not be bred. Any horse that needs pain killers to run should not be in the shed period.

I keep hoping that works like the Greyson jockey club report will make a real impact. We need to go back to breeding sound stock or these problems will keep manifesting themselves and we are all going to be stuck with Artificail surfaces.
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Old 05-06-2008, 11:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnielu

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

jdl
There, no doubt, needs to be changes made. And Moss has some excellent thoughts.

Regarding Eight Belles, I didn't want her in the race--not at any time. Unlike many, I did not think she belonged. I felt it was asking too much. Too, her trainer gets on her every morning to exercise her--and he weighs how much? Maybe 180-190, at least. Maybe, indeed, more. He's a big man.

Yes, she was by far at the top of fillies in talent; but, here, with the colts she was not a stand out to win. She was going to have to go too hard, especially with the likes of Brown--with his speed, along with several other front runners. One can see, readily in her past performances, she had won by only 1 1/4 length and 3/4 length at a 1 1/16th in her last two races prior to the Derby.

I think the owner pushed his trainer to the Derby; and he made a grave mistake in doing so. And now, his beautiful, talented filly is dead, while he may be haunted by his comment, "we have to do what's right by our filly."

This filly had more starts--9--than any other horse in the race. She had raced every four weeks since her career began in Sept of 07, with the exception of racing two weeks apart last October as a maiden two year old. It was at this time that she won by 10.

At no time, had she been given a rest, a breather. And what concerned me further, unlike every colt in the race, she had never been beyond a 1 1/16th.

They put her up against males, while, at the same time, adding more distance. And unlike Rags To Riches, who was a fresh horse, TRAINED UP TO THE BELMONT, a bigger filly--in muscle mass, and talent . . . . Eight Belles tried just as hard, running on pure heart and will.

She could have had soundness problems. Maybe not. She could have been in too deep. Maybe not. I have no idea really, but it broke my heart.

She may not have known she was special. But you can be sure of one thing--she knew her gender, she was a filly, and she knew they were all colts. THAT, I'm sure she knew in the paddock at Churchill Downs. And that's what caused me to be devastated. She knew. And she ran hard on what was pure and natural to her. Her female instinct, her raw talent.

I don't feel badly for the owner and trainer, both of whom could've exercised better judgement. Mr.Jones could shed some weight if he's going to insist . . .if he's going to continue, getting on the horses in his barn every morning.

I've not watched this race since Saturday. I watched Brown hit the wire far ahead. I knew he had won it, and in fine fashion. I didn't see Eight Belles go down, nor have I seen a photo of her lying on the track, up close, or by NBC's arial camera. I won't watch any of it. Nor will I argue about her right to belong or not.

I will, though, feel deeply for this filly. I don't like a filly running with colts, I never have, I never will. They don't have the capacity to know they are special. They have the capacity, like you and like I, to know their gender. And that is what broke my heart. She knew.

And bless her tremendous heart for the effort she gave. I hope she'll long be remembered for it.
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russowen77
You and I sure disagree there. I think the new breeding is our main problem.

Race day meds contribute much to that as we are breeding horses that should not be bred. Any horse that needs pain killers to run should not be in the shed period.

I keep hoping that works like the Greyson jockey club report will make a real impact. We need to go back to breeding sound stock or these problems will keep manifesting themselves and we are all going to be stuck with Artificail surfaces.
Artificial surfaces are here to stay, why? Confused handicappers put boxcar numbers on the board. Boxcar #'s on the board grow handle more then anything else.

jdl
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grits
There, no doubt, needs to be changes made. And Moss has some excellent thoughts.

Regarding Eight Belles, I didn't want her in the race--not at any time. Unlike many, I did not think she belonged. I felt it was asking too much. Too, her trainer gets on her every morning to exercise her--and he weighs how much? Maybe 180-190, at least. Maybe, indeed, more. He's a big man.

Yes, she was by far at the top of fillies in talent; but, here, with the colts she was not a stand out to win. She was going to have to go too hard, especially with the likes of Brown--with his speed, along with several other front runners. One can see, readily in her past performances, she had won by only 1 1/4 length and 3/4 length at a 1 1/16th in her last two races prior to the Derby.

I think the owner pushed his trainer to the Derby; and he made a grave mistake in doing so. And now, his beautiful, talented filly is dead, while he may be haunted by his comment, "we have to do what's right by our filly."

This filly had more starts--9--than any other horse in the race. She had raced every four weeks since her career began in Sept of 07, with the exception of racing two weeks apart last October as a maiden two year old. It was at this time that she won by 10.

At no time, had she been given a rest, a breather. And what concerned me further, unlike every colt in the race, she had never been beyond a 1 1/16th.

They put her up against males, while, at the same time, adding more distance. And unlike Rags To Riches, who was a fresh horse, TRAINED UP TO THE BELMONT, a bigger filly--in muscle mass, and talent . . . . Eight Belles tried just as hard, running on pure heart and will.

She could have had soundness problems. Maybe not. She could have been in too deep. Maybe not. I have no idea really, but it broke my heart.

She may not have known she was special. But you can be sure of one thing--she knew her gender, she was a filly, and she knew they were all colts. THAT, I'm sure she knew in the paddock at Churchill Downs. And that's what caused me to be devastated. She knew. And she ran hard on what was pure and natural to her. Her female instinct, her raw talent.

I don't feel badly for the owner and trainer, both of whom could've exercised better judgement. Mr.Jones could shed some weight if he's going to insist . . .if he's going to continue, getting on the horses in his barn every morning.

I've not watched this race since Saturday. I watched Brown hit the wire far ahead. I knew he had won it, and in fine fashion. I didn't see Eight Belles go down, nor have I seen a photo of her lying on the track, up close, or by NBC's arial camera. I won't watch any of it. Nor will I argue about her right to belong or not.

I will, though, feel deeply for this filly. I don't like a filly running with colts, I never have, I never will. They don't have the capacity to know they are special. They have the capacity, like you and like I, to know their gender. And that is what broke my heart. She knew.

And bless her tremendous heart for the effort she gave. I hope she'll long be remembered for it.
Spot on.

The owner deserves to be haunted.

jdl
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russowen77
You and I sure disagree there. I think the new breeding is our main problem.

Race day meds contribute much to that as we are breeding horses that should not be bred. Any horse that needs pain killers to run should not be in the shed period.

I keep hoping that works like the Greyson jockey club report will make a real impact. We need to go back to breeding sound stock or these problems will keep manifesting themselves and we are all going to be stuck with Artificail surfaces.
Society doesn't allow people to inbreed for a reason, it weakens the bloodlines, magnifies defects. Why should it be any different for horses?
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by shanta
Thanks John.

Very informative piece coming from a man who has much respect in the industry.

I hope they do get rid of the whip. As far as race day meds being allowed only in North America while the rest of world does not what else is new??

Anyone wanting a blueprint for success simply has to look at what goes on here in racing and do the opposite. From Adw's to signal wars to race day meds etc etc
Whips are often a tool necessary in guiding horses away from danger , especially sudden moves . To remove this mechanism from jockeys would be a disaster in the long run . I've seen instances where jockeys don't carry whips but they're far and few between . They'll never ban the whip .
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:34 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by jonnielu
Boxcar #'s on the board grow handle more then anything else.
Yes, because whales love to continue funneling money into pools where the winners fall outside their spread
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Society doesn't allow people to inbreed for a reason, it weakens the bloodlines, magnifies defects. Why should it be any different for horses?
These horses are all inbred and always have been. Perhaps you aren't aware of the history of the breed but all are descended through all of 3 sires, the Godolphin Barb, the Darley Arabian and the Byerly Turk. ALL of them. The Darley is responsible for about 75% of all current TBreds and an even great portion trace their lineage through Eclipse, one of his descendants. The problem is not the inbreeding, it is the breeding of genetically defective horses that seemed ok because they were pumped full of drugs during their racing days.

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Old 05-06-2008, 12:53 PM   #14
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Society doesn't allow people to inbreed for a reason, it weakens the bloodlines, magnifies defects. Why should it be any different for horses?
Society doesn't allow use of steroids in human atheletes. Why should it be any different for horses?


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Old 05-06-2008, 01:06 PM   #15
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All the usual crap, instead of considering anything that might have any chance of being a real remedy, let's make some dumb token moves, or at least spend a year or so talking dumb stuff, so that we can avoid addressing the issue, if there is one.

Who made the decision to scratch this Oaks winner from that race so that she could run herself to death trying to win the Derby, when they had to know second was the best likely possibility? Did that individual have any clue as to the spirit of this animal?

It is their spirit that attracts our admiration, often times more then our respect. Perhaps our respect should be brought to equal.

Did that individual consider for two minutes the possible effects of a big-hearted filly chasing an unbeatable colt for 10 furlongs with all of the jockey's weight being supported by two spindly ankles everytime the front feet hit the ground?

Perhaps racing should recognize that there are people that have more money and ambition then they do common sense and put an end to 2YO racing and girls racing against boys.

Such a remedy might not be popular with anyone, but it might be a remedy. Perhaps, a healthier respect for this noble animal could be developed.
Could someone please explain this logic to me? I can't make sense of it. So she was running all out -- I get that. Is running all out against boys different that running all out against girls? Are you saying this filly would never have to run this fast against girls? Fillies don't exert themselves when running against other fillies? Fillies running against stiff competition (boys or girls) are in extra danger? Any filly facing a horse that they can't hope to beat is going to breakdown?

What are you talking about? I really don't get it...
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