Blackjack

[Dave Schwartz]

You guys can come over my house for casino night any time you want...."for fun only" I will have the best booze and anything else you want here....

Some years ago I did this at my house for like 8 people.

I had practiced with the cards for about a week to make it fun for them. (LOL And for me.)

I fashioned a BJ table top out of a rectangular sheet of plywood, tacked on some foam and a felt, and we were off and running. BTW, I put the table on two ironing boards. Worked like a charm. (The table would only seat 4 at a time and most people played standing up.)

Everyone got lots of checks (as we called them in the gaming biz) - starting with about $2,000 each. $2 minimum and $500 limit.

Anyway, I had a great time pumping up the worst players and taking down the best.

After about 90 minutes, I had broken them all, save for this one woman who barely knew how to play. Everyone was shocked and amazed at how this could have happened.

I said, "Well, I think I know how." At that point I took the deck, turned the top card face up, and proceeded to deal hit after hit without the top card moving. The people were just in hysterics over this.

This was the BJ I was introduced to when I was a young guy dealing BJ in Miami. Nobody was allowed to win unless the boss said they could.

BTW, this ironing board setup was they same one I used to practice with back in the 70s - except without the mirrors. LOL

[BlueShoe]

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

Come on over!!!!!!!! And I'm burying 23 of the 104 cards

Interesting in that Wiff claims to know more about Blackjack probabilities than do all the computer analysis done which have played billions of hands going back more than half a century. That aside, by "burying 23 of the 104 cards", does that mean dealing a DD to slightly over 3/4 of the deck, 75% pen? If so, I should dust off my game and come on over. Was a serious player for over 20 years, but gradually lost interest in the 90's when the casino countermeasures no longer made the game worthwhile. Every once in a while will play a few hands using perfect basic stratagy, and try not to count, even after all these years the instinct is still there.

[Dave Schwartz]

In fairness to Whiff, he spoke of a 12% "hold." In casino terms that used to mean that 12% of what went into the drop box became casino profit. (Perhaps he means something different; can't really speak for him.)

In other words, it is all about negative churn.

My opinion would be that BJ is a GREAT game in the hands of a trained (and practiced) player. Alas, most players only think they fall into that category.

The players who have read a book or practiced against software will still go out and get crushed, then wonder how that could happen.

When I played full time, I actually spent several days counting every dollar I wagered. After playing around 50 hours I determined that my advantage was 7/10s of 1%. The compounding (and money management) allowed me to turn that into a rather large pile of money.

Conversely, even a 1% disadvantage is fatal to a bankroll in the long run. In the world I lived in (in a galaxy far, far away, I think), the dishonest practices made that even worse. Most players, even highly accomplished ones, could not always sidestep the "bad" games. LOL - In the 70s we called those "lucky dealers."

[wiffleball whizz]

Originally Posted by BlueShoe

Interesting in that Wiff claims to know more about Blackjack probabilities than do all the computer analysis done which have played billions of hands going back more than half a century. That aside, by "burying 23 of the 104 cards", does that mean dealing a DD to slightly over 3/4 of the deck, 75% pen? If so, I should dust off my game and come on over. Was a serious player for over 20 years, but gradually lost interest in the 90's when the casino countermeasures no longer made the game worthwhile. Every once in a while will play a few hands using perfect basic stratagy, and try not to count, even after all these years the instinct is still there.

No I Definitly domt know more then the computer whizzes......the game is a nightmare on elm street

Again im 20 min from laurel and there is a shoe in my house!!!!

[ldiatone]

agree on the dice, but 1 deck black jack in vegas? but now, whats the payout is 6-5 instead of 2-1??,

[wiffleball whizz]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

In fairness to Whiff, he spoke of a 12% "hold." In casino terms that used to mean that 12% of what went into the drop box became casino profit. (Perhaps he means something different; can't really speak for him.)

In other words, it is all about negative churn.

My opinion would be that BJ is a GREAT game in the hands of a trained (and practiced) player. Alas, most players only think they fall into that category.

The players who have read a book or practiced against software will still go out and get crushed, then wonder how that could happen.

When I played full time, I actually spent several days counting every dollar I wagered. After playing around 50 hours I determined that my advantage was 7/10s of 1%. The compounding (and money management) allowed me to turn that into a rather large pile of money.

Conversely, even a 1% disadvantage is fatal to a bankroll in the long run. In the world I lived in (in a galaxy far, far away, I think), the dishonest practices made that even worse. Most players, even highly accomplished ones, could not always sidestep the "bad" games. LOL - In the 70s we called those "lucky dealers."

Great post Dave........your one of my favorite posters on here with your experience is different forms of gambling...

And yes the 12 percent hold was what they are keeping out of the drop...that's not any figure I've read just my opinion.....bj is such a house game when played wrong

This thread is just another example of my this forum is the best.....we can all debate our opinions....

[BlueShoe]

Originally Posted by ldiatone

agree on the dice, but 1 deck black jack in vegas? but now, whats the payout is 6-5 instead of 2-1??,

Single deck blackjack games that pay 6-5 for blackjacks rather than the traditional standard 3-2 is an abomination that no savvy player would ever play. It adds an extra 1.39% house advantage, a huge extra bite that no player, no matter how skilled, can overcome. The problem is that these games have spread all over the state of Nevada, and have almost become standard. A single deck game that pays 3-2 for naturals, has good rules and pen, with a low minimum bet has become virtually obsolete in the blackjack world.

At one time the Las Vegas Strip had the best BJ games on the planet, now it has many of the worst. There are still some 3-2 games, but they usually have very high minimum bets, $100 is common. The Nevada clubs that still have low limit SD games with 3-2 blackjacks, such as in Laughlin and Reno/Tahoe usually have bad rules, such as only permitting doubling on hard 10 and 11, and poor pen. Am not really up to date on current game conditions, but in my casual play the best choice now seems to be a double deck game with decent rules, but even these games have become hard to find.

[Robert Goren]

Of course Blackjack is big money maker for the house. They bar the good players and keep sucking the money from the bad. It is a great game for the casino because players are so streaky in it . They win a bundle one night , lose it a week later, spend another 4 session trying to lucky. When they finally get lucky again, the cycle starts all over again. Most people who try to count cards get discouraged after about 3 hours and start looking to the sky for how to play.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

My opinion would be that BJ is a GREAT game in the hands of a trained (and practiced) player. Alas, most players only think they fall into that category.

I couldn't agree more with this.
Working as a surveillance agent, I watch many BJ players.
The above statement covers a large percentage of them.

People ask me "Do you catch many card counters?".
I answer " Yes, quite a few."
You might think that these people are shown the door. Not usually.
Their problem is generally money management, and that's why we can let them continue to play even though we know they are counting, and that they have a good grasp of basic strategy.
Many can't handle losing situations. When they get that inevitable back door beat holding a 20 (the dealer catching 21 after multiple hits), you can see smoke coming out their ears - and they start playing accordingly.
Discipline, or lack of it, is the difference between decent players and excellent ones.
In Tahoe, we have the added advantage as surveillance agents of being so quiet these days on the tables, that advantage players stick out pretty quickly. It's much easier for successful BJ players to blend in at a busy Las Vegas casino, or anywhere that's busy, than it is if you are one of the few playing black chips, or higher.

I can count down an 8-deck shoe with the best of them.
My knowledge of strategy is excellent.
Would I play BJ to supplement my income?
Under the right circumstances, I would answer yes.
Bankroll as a family provider, and my current profession, won't allow it.
Dave is right, though. It's a great game for a small minority.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Of course Blackjack is big money maker for the house. They bar the good players and keep sucking the money from the bad. It is a great game for the casino because players are so streaky in it . They win a bundle one night , lose it a week later, spend another 4 session trying to lucky. When they finally get lucky again, the cycle starts all over again. Most people who try to count cards get discouraged after about 3 hours and start looking to the sky for how to play.

Have to be patient. I started taking up blackjack late last year. I've only played in the casino six times. I don't crave the action of a casino so I can wait until I get very proficient. I can bet horses whenever I want. There's tools like Casino Verite which are great at casino simulation to practice counting cards, as well as basic strategy. I think you are giving way too much credit to the casinos. They don't WANT to bar players unless they really take a loss. In this day of Twitter and Yelp, its terrible publicity to bar players. If I ever get barred, I will absolutely tear them apart on Yelp.

But one thing is for sure; my competitors at the track are much sharper than most of the idiots at these BJ tables. Lots of ploppies. People believing in "the flow of the cards", or stupid stuff like blaming "bad players" for their loss. These idiots dont realize a bad player will help others as much as hurt them.

I also think blackjack sharpens one's betting skills in other areas. At the track, most of us probably make a few too many plays. We often don't differentiate enough between our strong plays and action plays. With counting cards, its black and white.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Valuist

In this day of Twitter and Yelp, its terrible publicity to bar players. If I ever get barred, I will absolutely tear them apart on Yelp.

True, but they won't lose much sleep over it.

Widespread criticism does occur on social media, but they are more concerned with hotel guests whose pillows weren't fluffy enough, or their shower water was too hot or cold, than they are about disgruntled table games players.

Now, if you're a good slots player, that's a whole different story......

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

True, but they won't lose much sleep over it.

Widespread criticism does occur on social media, but they are more concerned with hotel guests whose pillows weren't fluffy enough, or their shower water was too hot or cold, than they are about disgruntled table games players.

Now, if you're a good slots player, that's a whole different story......

Twitter and Yelp are relatively new, so even if they may not appear to care now, that doesn't mean they won't down the line. Twitter is only gaining in popularity (moreso, IMO, than Facebook).

I've heard casino management interviewed before and they've echoed some of what you said. They let plenty of counters play, as long as they aren't winning big sums. I don't know how many card counting teams are out there, but my guess is that would be a legitimate concern.

[DeltaLover]

Card counting is not effective for eight deck games, as the profitable situations are extremely rare.

My understanding is that what is considered the most profitable approach when it comes to BJ is shuffle tracking, a skill that is related to visual observance talent rather than counting which is a strictly logical concept.

I am under the impression, that the constantly changing rules and regulations are converting a once beatable game to a negative expectation proposition similar to craps or baccarat.

Of course, this does not mean that basic strategy does not exist or it is not necessary.

It is beyond any doubt that a pair of eights should always be split; this decision is not a matter of opinion but a fact that we can prove mathematically. Although BJ might have a slightly negative EV if basic strategy is followed, it can be converted to the most expensive casino game if decisions depend on guessing and intuition.

Speaking strictly about minimizing the casino's edge, I think that the best bet is going to be in craps, taking the pass line plus maximum odds. Given that it is possible today to find 5X, 10X or even more, the take out is very small. Besides that, even in this nearly zero rake game, you are again a guaranteed looser assuming that you continue to bet for long enough periods.

Any casino game, including slots, craps, BJ, PAI-GO and everything else, should be avoided at any cost for the serious gambler.

Without cheating it is impossible to beat...

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Valuist

Twitter and Yelp are relatively new, so even if they may not appear to care now, that doesn't mean they won't down the line. Twitter is only gaining in popularity (moreso, IMO, than Facebook).

I've heard casino management interviewed before and they've echoed some of what you said. They let plenty of counters play, as long as they aren't winning big sums. I don't know how many card counting teams are out there, but my guess is that would be a legitimate concern.

As far as the effect of social media on casinos goes, it's there already.
Marketing departments constantly monitor the feedback on there,
and when something nasty is said, upper management finds out about it quickly.
They do care. Just not as much about table games as some other areas.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Card counting is not effective for eight deck games, as the profitable situations are extremely rare.

False.
This is where team play is most effective, but even an excellent counter playing solo,
who is prepared to grind it out for hours on end, can make it pay.

A shoe game where the true count rises to over +20, with less than a third of the cards remaining to be dealt,
is an excellent opportunity for the player.
Suddenly, that $10-25/hand grinder, is betting $500-1000(x3).
It's "show time" for him/her. In less than five minutes, he/she is walking a winner, or loser.
They are safe in the knowledge, though, that this is the time to bet big. They know that they have an edge now.
It will all likely happen before floor staff even notice.

This player may have been grinding for hours to get to this point.
Or, as a team member, may have tipped-off their "big money player" that this particular shoe was now ripe for plucking. Shoe games, typically, allow mid-deck entry for play. This is not the case on single, or double deck