Questions about Firenze Fire/Jason Servis

[PaceAdvantage]

Horses still need to be trained though...and that's the point, or so I thought.

[Robert Fischer]

getting off track with some of this shit...


Horse moves up from "Should be running ungraded stakes and OC races at 1-turn", to IS NOW TO BE CONSIDERED THE DIVISION LEADER, while he moves down from "Hey I think we have a consensus here that he should be 6-1 he may improve going 1-turn and his trainer is rather hot" to 5/2 SUCKERS! in the last 30 seconds = significant/legitimate topic of concern


this other stuff needs it's own thread...
Whether you think Leanna Willaford is a 'class-act' and her having a moment in the sun a wonderful story that should be celebrated, or whether you think the current trainer suspensions that affect the named head trainer while leaving barns operating as usual, and owners generally unscathed is bad, = it detracts from the thread's focus on the bold act that we saw in broad daylight on a relatively big stage. It deserves it's own thread.

[PaceAdvantage]

Having a hard time remembering who even implied "a wonderful story that should be celebrated"

I guess I missed a few posts.

[cj]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

CRW has probably saved a lot of tracks.

That's why you won't see it go away any time soon.

It is just another short term fix. People are leaving the game. Handle might look stagnant or even have slight increases, but the revenue probably doesn't match given the rebates some of these teams are getting. And at this rate they'll just be playing against themselves soon for the most part. Then what?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by jay68802

I never said she was a idiot, incompetent, or insulted her in any way. The simple fact is that the horse was previously trained by Mott William. Was "transfered", to Leanna, because Mott is serving a suspension. The horse did not change barns, or move anywhere, and will go right back to Mott after the suspension. Calling her anything but a "paper trainer" in this situation is being ignorant.

Bingo. It's inane that Serling and PA are overlooking your point and twisting what you said.

NYRA (hey Andy, that includes Saratoga) dropped the ball here. A suspension should mean a suspension, not a temp transfer into an assistant's name.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Bingo. It's inane that Serling and PA are overlooking your point and twisting what you said.

NYRA (hey Andy, that includes Saratoga) dropped the ball here. A suspension should mean a suspension, not a temp transfer into an assistant's name.

Not overlooking anything. It's two completely different discussions. Two completely different topics.

Maybe it's too nuanced for you to comprehend. If so, I can completely understand that.

You can keep focusing on that one discussion and one topic that has nothing to do with what Andy was talking about. It won't make you any more correct.

[cj]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

If you call her a "paper trainer" it is kind of insulting as you're saying she is doing nothing but putting her name on the paper...when...in fact...it's been pointed out by people with more knowledge that she is crucial to the Bill Mott operation and plays a vital, daily role in the day-to-day training.

Whether one agrees or not that this is the RIGHT thing to do when a trainer is suspended is an entirely different discussion.

The real issue in this case is that Mott appears to mostly be the paper trainer.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Having a hard time remembering who even implied "a wonderful story that should be celebrated"

I guess I missed a few posts.

Well that's my official stance. Maybe I've let my opinion get in the way.


She's a wonderful story. Class act. She's been working as Bill Mott's assistant. If another thread pops up, I'll continue to defend her.


For this thread I'll focus on the horse that went from Free Drop Bill to Justify in one race for a guy who is training like King Midas while taking 60 grand (just talking 'win' money) in the last 30 seconds of the pool.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Bingo. It's inane that Serling and PA are overlooking your point and twisting what you said.

NYRA (hey Andy, that includes Saratoga) dropped the ball here. A suspension should mean a suspension, not a temp transfer into an assistant's name.

I personally don't think this is such a big deal as long as the assistant is actually getting paid as the lead trainer. Unless somebody thinks (I don't) that Mott is getting paid while suspended, I don't see the problem.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by jay68802

Fine, insert "trainer of record" for "paper trainer". Still just a end run around a suspension.

This WOMAN has been this trainer's assistant for TWENTY YEARS. ( You must have missed this part.). Again, twenty years in a barn 7 days a week. Said trainer is known as one of the finest, most honest horsemen in North America.

He fought an almost four year legal battle. Now, put time spent along with his legal fees incurred, up against a paltry $1,000 fine. Tell me who comes out on the short end of the stick.

Every trainer, going through such a hell, should have a Leanna Williford to oversee their barn and it's entries for seven brief days.

TWENTY YEARS speaks volumes!!

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

You’re missing the point. A trainer on suspension shouldn’t be able to run his horses who are racing under another trainer “on paper.”

Isn’t Mott at NYRA most of the year? But she’s in charge, not Mott?

You can blame all the latest chicanery on this one post from Fager, which was wrong on multiple levels. Never forget that.

[metro]

Originally Posted by turfnsport

According to Bill Finley:

The pool for the Dwyer closed at 4:38:38. At 4:38.02, an $8,500 win bet was made on the eventual winner. A series of bets between $2,083 and $4,355 followed. At 4:38.16, 12 bets in increments of $5,000 were bet at the same time. It’s apparent that one player made a $60,000 win bet at that time, but his or her tote company was only able to record the bets at a maximum of $5,000 each.

A bet of $2,012 followed at 4:38.18. At the exact same time, a win bet of $24,055 came in and then at 4:38.21another $11,596 was bet to win on Firenze Fire.

Odds are updated in cycles and the cycles are more frequent as the race draws closer. Within the last minute before the race goes off, the odds are updated every 10 seconds.

At Cycle 2, approximately 20 seconds before the race began, Firenze Fire was 6.3-1. He went down to 5-1 with the next flash and then closed at 5-2.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...wyer-wagering/

I thought the last part of Finley's article was relevant too.....

"There were a few other odds shifts within the final 36 seconds, but none nearly as dramatic as the one on Firenze Fire. Seahenge (Scat Daddy), Mendelssohn’s stablemate, went from 37-1 to 27-1. Seven Trumpets (Morning Line) fell from 15-1 to 10-1."

In other words, the CRW surely dumped money on horses other than Firenze Fire late, as they surely do on every race they invest. They still made money on FF but not as much as the optics may show.

The real crusher to FFs closing odds obviously came from the $60K wager late since that money was on ONE horse and not spread across those that CRWs still saw as value.

[the little guy]

Originally Posted by cj

The real issue in this case is that Mott appears to mostly be the paper trainer.

Not in the least. He has the bulk of his horses under his care whether it’s Florida or NY. Like any trainer with a reasonable number of horses, he has horses in different locales, and assistants overseeing things in those locations. Don’t forget, assistants work under the top trainer.

[Track Phantom]

The Little Guy:

Why don't tracks allow trainers on the grounds by "invitation-only" with the subjective decision making to exclude trainers who appear to be taking an edge? I know that no one wants to reduce horses on the grounds but I can't believe any track feels like what happened last weekend and what is happening with the trainer in question is a good thing.

If I walk into the Wynn in Vegas and win at a rate that is out of the norm over a long period of time, they'll "politely" show me the door.

I know there are dozens or reasons this is probably a bad idea (opening the door for a variety of unintended consequences) but tracks are NEVER going to catch up to those taking an edge. They have to approach it in a different way if they want to eradicate the obvious offenders.

[cj]

Originally Posted by the little guy

Not in the least. He has the bulk of his horses under his care whether it’s Florida or NY. Like any trainer with a reasonable number of horses, he has horses in different locales, and assistants overseeing things in those locations. Don’t forget, assistants work under the top trainer.

I understand, I don't think it is a huge issue, or even one that matters much at all, I just wish this stuff was more transparent. Like I obviously know Steve Asmussen isn't saddling horses that run under his name at Remington Park, but it wouldn't hurt to know who is.