CRW’s and California Racing

[kyle r]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Why don't the people in charge want to grow the game? I have zero understanding of what they're doing and where it leads. It seems to be to fail as slowly as possible. Why?

We have been “Between Two Ages (Brzezinski, 1970).” The rapidity at which the old age is being destroyed is accelerating. So while things seem to have been failing slowly, expect the pace to quicken. Horseracing, the type of land use that supports it, and the relative independent lifestyle it affords has no place in the new world they are unveiling.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Just "improve the experience" of the CAW groups and everything is fine. Don't worry about the rest of us...we are too addicted to quit anyway.

It's not parimutual anymore.
It's more like the Titanic.....whales are on the Promenade deck, the rest of us in steerage.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

CAW is computer assisted wagering.

CRW is computer robotic wagering.

As I understand it two acronyms for the same thing.


-jp

.

Has anyone given ChatGPT a bankroll yet?

[elhelmete]

OK I'll ask what might be an obvious question to some.
What is the play for Stronach (or whatever dark-web subsidiary thereof), and NYRA Bets (which I assume--but may be wrong--does have less than an arm's distance relationship to NYRA), to own pieces of ETC?

I can think of a few, but they each seem pretty shadowy.

[Cholly]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Why don't the people in charge want to grow the game?

The “people in charge” are corporations. What they are focused upon growing is their profit–not “the game”.

In truth the landscape is more complicated, but it’s convenient to consider the “people in charge” to be Churchill, Stronach, & NYRA (CS&N). Some here seem to embrace the idea that “The industry is being run into the ground by morons”, but that notion doesn’t stand up to any logic test–CS&N are multi-billion dollar corporations, and morons don’t keep jobs running businesses like that; plus, it’s a certainty they are being advised by very sharp accountants, mathematicians, IT people, and other analysts.

As currently formatted (prices, rebates, tote access, etc.) the pari-mutuel system is diverting “winnings” towards the CAW teams and away from the rest of us. It’s only logical that CS&N has seized the opportunity to commandeer much of those winnings for their own bottom lines. There have been mentions in the press of CS&N ownership of hubs like Elite, and their equity positions in CAW teams–it would defy logic if CS&N weren’t muscling in on this action.

Consider how the commentators on the track feeds relentlessly pimp the multi-race-pik bets (btw, thank you, NYRA, for not being as over-the-top as the others on this). Other threads on this forum have demonstrated that the winnings from multi-race-pik bets are especially tilted in favor of the CAW’s–so if CAW winnings are ending up as CS&N profit, of course the word will be passed down for the talking heads to pimp these bets.

Others have demonstrated that the CAW phenomenon has raised the effective take-out rate on people like me. If most of that increase is accruing to the bottom lines of CS&N, accomplished without incurring the blow-back that would have accompanied take-out increases made openly…that’s some slick maneuvering. The people running Churchill, Stronach, & NYRA? Call them what you want, but “morons” they’re not.

[Poindexter]

Originally Posted by Cholly

The “people in charge” are corporations. What they are focused upon growing is their profit–not “the game”.

In truth the landscape is more complicated, but it’s convenient to consider the “people in charge” to be Churchill, Stronach, & NYRA (CS&N). Some here seem to embrace the idea that “The industry is being run into the ground by morons”, but that notion doesn’t stand up to any logic test–CS&N are multi-billion dollar corporations, and morons don’t keep jobs running businesses like that; plus, it’s a certainty they are being advised by very sharp accountants, mathematicians, IT people, and other analysts.

As currently formatted (prices, rebates, tote access, etc.) the pari-mutuel system is diverting “winnings” towards the CAW teams and away from the rest of us. It’s only logical that CS&N has seized the opportunity to commandeer much of those winnings for their own bottom lines. There have been mentions in the press of CS&N ownership of hubs like Elite, and their equity positions in CAW teams–it would defy logic if CS&N weren’t muscling in on this action.

Consider how the commentators on the track feeds relentlessly pimp the multi-race-pik bets (btw, thank you, NYRA, for not being as over-the-top as the others on this). Other threads on this forum have demonstrated that the winnings from multi-race-pik bets are especially tilted in favor of the CAW’s–so if CAW winnings are ending up as CS&N profit, of course the word will be passed down for the talking heads to pimp these bets.

Others have demonstrated that the CAW phenomenon has raised the effective take-out rate on people like me. If most of that increase is accruing to the bottom lines of CS&N, accomplished without incurring the blow-back that would have accompanied take-out increases made openly…that’s some slick maneuvering. The people running Churchill, Stronach, & NYRA? Call them what you want, but “morons” they’re not.

They may not be morons, but they have taken this industry down the toilet due to a very misguided belief set that rebates would be an effective tool to grow the game. I have stated before I don't know what their motivations are. Maybe they plan on using casino revenues to subsidize this game forever? Maybe they have different plans. But honestly when the betting handle really plummets (and that day is fast approaching) do you think that casino revenues will save the day? I don't. If I am correct, what happens to this industry? They can spin it however they want. Too much competition, changing taste of America, the game is too slow for young people, yawn.......But there is only one truth (whether anyone else agrees with me or not), rebates have killed this game. Eliminating them before it is too late and bringing down takeout is the only way to resurrect this game.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Cholly

In truth the landscape is more complicated, but it’s convenient to consider the “people in charge” to be Churchill, Stronach, & NYRA (CS&N).

We need a 4th track owner that only sometimes joins them, with the first initial "Y".

[AskinHaskin]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

In the twelve full years that have passed since 2011:

Retail handle and on track attendance have fallen considerably.

And CAW wagering has risen appreciably.

Why do you think that is?


.

Uh, obviously it's the mighty HANA boycott long in effect.

Championed by HANA and its head cheerleader.


(I thought everyone knew as much)

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

Uh, obviously it's the mighty HANA boycott long in effect.

Championed by HANA and its head cheerleader.


(I thought everyone knew as much)

Now you’re just being a dick!

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Poindexter

They may not be morons, but they have taken this industry down the toilet due to a very misguided belief set that rebates would be an effective tool to grow the game. I have stated before I don't know what their motivations are. Maybe they plan on using casino revenues to subsidize this game forever? Maybe they have different plans. But honestly when the betting handle really plummets (and that day is fast approaching) do you think that casino revenues will save the day? I don't. If I am correct, what happens to this industry? They can spin it however they want. Too much competition, changing taste of America, the game is too slow for young people, yawn.......But there is only one truth (whether anyone else agrees with me or not), rebates have killed this game. Eliminating them before it is too late and bringing down takeout is the only way to resurrect this game.

Is it really rebates that are killing the game? Or is it because the game just doesn't stack up to the alternatives? I am not suggesting that rebates don't make it tougher to find overlays, just that it is not the primary driver of reduced play by non-rebate players.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Is it really rebates that are killing the game? Or is it because the game just doesn't stack up to the alternatives? I am not suggesting that rebates don't make it tougher to find overlays, just that it is not the primary driver of reduced play by non-rebate players.

Contests are booming. The only thing missing is CAW/CRW

Each pool in live racing is a contest in theory but not with the CAW/CRW's in there. Eliminate them and racing has a chance to grow

[cj]

Originally Posted by AskinHaskin

Uh, obviously it's the mighty HANA boycott long in effect.

Championed by HANA and its head cheerleader.


(I thought everyone knew as much)

You aren't even beating a dead horse at this point. You're digging up the remains and snapping the bones. Move the eff on already, geez.

[cj]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Is it really rebates that are killing the game? Or is it because the game just doesn't stack up to the alternatives? I am not suggesting that rebates don't make it tougher to find overlays, just that it is not the primary driver of reduced play by non-rebate players.

I don't think it is rebates at all. But I do think CRWs are a part of it. It isn't just the rebates, it is the other edge they have in betting last and fast.

It is almost like track executives have data that reduced takeout (more towards competition's levels) has a positive impact on handle but are afraid to act on it.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Contests are booming. The only thing missing is CAW/CRW

Each pool in live racing is a contest in theory but not with the CAW/CRW's in there. Eliminate them and racing has a chance to grow

What is the carrot to entice gamblers to move their action to racing? They pour billions into games that they can never beat yet I'm told that getting rid of the the CAW/CRWs is the answer. There is a small segment of gamblers that might dip their toes in the water, but not enough to make a difference.



Racetracks are closing all over the country. I was told that what racing needed was a contraction, fewer tracks. How's that working out?

[Poindexter]

It is a combination of rebates and pricing. Their is only one carrot to make anyone want to try betting horses and keep betting horses. That carrot is the perception that somewhere down the line they can beat the game and currently they can play the game and lose a comfortable amount of money. Thanks to the caw who are propelled by rebates and outdated pricing the carrot can never exist. There is only one solution. Eliminate rebates and I believe 8 percent wps, 10 percent double and exacta and 15 percent all other exotics is the best number to feed the public, feed the racetracks and keep the whales in the game at a lesser degree. Every day this industry fails to make this solution a reality the harder it will be become to ever save this industry. RIP.

There is no better example than listening to Maloney referenced in another thread. Hear is a man who by all accounts is a horse player extraordinaire. He currently is paying 10 to 11 percent on just about every pool which means he get double digit rebates on a lot of bets and his betting is 15 percent of what he was 15 years ago. If this industry cannot figure out what they are doing wrong they may as well play Dandy Don Meredith singing turn out the lights, because the party will be over.