Who buys The Sheets or Thoro-Graph?

[jeebus1083]

I've heard that they are good, but are so damn expensive.

[kev]

I buy the Ragozin sheets, and I do very well with them. I try to post my picks on their site as much as I can. Yes for one track it's like $30.00, but I don't play every race, so I buy one race here and one race there. You have to buy atless $15.00 worth, which is 3 races. I buy maybe 6 races a weekend. I went 3 out of 6 this weekend.....winners paying 12, 9, 7( which is on the low end, but oh well ). Alot of people think it's just about the number, it's more about the pattern's of the number's.

[oddswizard]

The sheets are too expensive. The racing form has the same information if you know how to read the form. Basically the sheets show the form of the horses in a nice & computer read out. I agree with Steve Christ. The sheets simply give the big players more confidence in playing their selections. Pick more winners? I don't think so.

[garyoz]

Hey oddswizard when have you used The Sheets and for how long? Sounds like you don't know much to me.

[kev]

Steve C. What a joke, for him saying that. Let's see alot of the big player's and contest winner's are using their data, oh it must be confinence, pick more winner's?? I don't know about that either, but pick better price horses out, by far yes. Couple weekends ago I went 1 out of 6, but the one winner I had was R LADY JOY paying somehting like $37 something. Bring it.

[cnollfan]

I am not a Sheets guy, but as publisher of DRF, Steven Crist is hardly an unbiased observer.

[oddswizard]

You may be right. Maybe all I know is how to make my living at the races. I have a friend of mine who loves the sheets because he gets them free. However, he has never bested me at the races yet. I reviewed the sheets as I do every item about racing. The information simply did not impress me. I agree Steve Christ is a biased person but his statement hit home with me. I have won 3 handicapping contests. I know the sheets have won one contest. The point is this- If you can make money with the sheets, more power to you! It is a handicapping tool like Pace or Class. To me it is just too expensive for the data received. Good luck.

[garyoz]

Originally Posted by oddswizard

You may be right. Maybe all I know is how to make my living at the races. I have a friend of mine who loves the sheets because he gets them free. However, he has never bested me at the races yet.

Undoubtedly one of the many people that the Ragozin guys give The Sheets away to for free. A statement that the DRF "has the same information" as The Sheets shows that you don't understand The Sheets. The fact that they are a "computer readout" has little to do with The Sheets. Personally (and I'm certain many others on this Board) started using The Sheets/Thorograph when they were handwritten. The validity and reliability of the numbers and their use for form cycle analysis make them a unique product. I also think that the Xtra's should be included in the discussion of sheet products.

Jeebus1083, what I would suggest is opening an account with Tgraph and then make maximum use of the Redboard Room to download the product after the races to study how to use them.

[kev]

A Thorograph user/drf user won the NTRA ( big daddy ) contest last year, and over the past week or so, another TG user won two contest..this from Jerry Brown."A big tip of the hat to TG customer Paul Shurman, who won the Bradley contest over the weekend, which sends him back to the NTRA finals.

Also congratulations to Paul Shurman, who won the Youbet contest the same day.

That's right, Paul won both. Since by rule he can only have one seat in Vegas, Paul gave up his Youbet title.

Which made the winner of that contest TG customers Michelle and Charlie Thompson, who will join Paul in Vegas. "
This from the Rag...site........Just because your better than your friend means nothing, maybe he doesnt know how to read them that well.

January 31, 2005 - Sheets User places 2nd in the Orleans World Series Handicapping Contest.
Congratulations to longtime Sheets customer Paul Kasselman on his second place finish in the Orleans World Series handicapping contest. Job well done!
January 3, 2005 - THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING. 2004 was another banner year for trainers and owners using the SHEETS.
Seven of the top fifteen and eighteen of the top one hundred trainers in money earned were SHEET customers and for the second straight year SHEET trainers ranked 1-2-3.
Five of the top fifteen and 14 of the top one hundred owners in money earned were SHEET customers, including the leading woman owner, Maggi Moss, who ranked number thirty.
In addition two of the top fifteen jockeys in money earned were SHEET customers.
We congratulate them all and are happy to be a part of their very successful year in racing.
September 1, 2004 - Contest Winners
Jared Hutt won the Freehold contest three Saturdays ago, and his father, Bob Hutt won the $30,000 handicapping contest at Monmouth this past weekend. Both are devout Ragozin Sheet handicappers and we wish them well as they go forward in the "big contests" coming up. Job well done by a classy father and son.
August 9, 200 - Big Weekend for The Sheets! -
Saturday was a super day for SHEETS trainers and owners. First, Bwana Charlie, trained by Steve Asmussen and managed perfectly by his assistant Scott blasi, win the Amsterdam at Saratoga. Then, Roses In May wins the Whitney. Roses In May is owned by Ken "pic six king" Ramsey and trained by Dale Romans, both Sheet clients. And finally, Herculated, trained by Mike Stidham, wins the Sea O'Erin stake at Arlington Park. Congratulations to all.
July 7, 2004 - Churchill Downs Leaders -
At the recently concluded Churchill Downs spring meet, Ken Ramsey won his nineth consecutive owners title at the track. The trainers battle came down to the wire, and Steve Asmussen edged out Dale Romans and Tom Amoss. All of the above are Ragozin Sheet customers. Job well done!
June 5, 2004 - Belmont Stakes Notebook (NY Post: 6/5/04)
Sizing up the opposition, Servis said he thinks this is a "very good group" of 3-year-olds.
"one of the biggest tools I use in my training and handicapping is the Ragozin [speed-rating] Sheets," he said. "I've compared them to last year's, and I thought this was a much better crop. With that being said, they seem to be a little erratic [running] big numbers and then bouncing off that.
"The thing I like so much about my horse is that his numbers have been very steady. He hasn't had one blowout race. Even in the Preakness, there wasn't a big change. When you get that big change, you worry about the bounce theory."
May 01, 2004 - Bonita Springs Sheet player hits superfecta for $41,380.20 in 2004 Kentucky Derby-
Part-time Bonita Springs resident Sammy Wayson hit the superfecta — correctly picking the top four finishers — in Saturday’s Kentucky Derby to win $41,380.20.
Wayson credited his success to the use of handicapping sheets written by New York’s Len Ragozin. “I wouldn’t go to the track without them. I’d be blindfolded.”
February 12, 2004 - A customer cashed this race last Sunday (02/07): Win $61.40, 1$ Exacta - $209.70; 1$ Trifecta - $1,539; 1$ Super - $18,375. Click here to see the Sheets for this race.
February 07, 2004 - Eclipse Award winner Jerry Bailey called Anderson "the best agent I've ever had." "Ron uses the Ragozin Numbers system better than anyone else," Bailey said. "He can determine 95% of the time when a horse will or will not run his A race. He doesn't ask me a whole lot to choose between horses, and I like that. It's one of the things I don't want to get involved in."
January 02, 2004 - Sheet Trainers, Jockeys lead the way: 2003 was another banner year for trainers and jockeys using the SHEETS. The top jockey, once again, and the 11th in money won were guided by longtime SHEET using agents Ron Anderson and Lenny Pike, respectively
12 of the top 50 trainers, including the top 3 and 4 of the top 10, used SHEETS regularly to enhance their winning ways.
We are pround that these top professionals use our numbers to help manage their successful operations and we congratulate them all.
December 01, 2003 - Congratulations to super jockey agent and Sheet user Ron Anderson, on Jerry Bailey's new record for stakes wins in a single season. (70 stakes and counting).
November 30, 2003 - Congratulations to Sheet user Jerry Crawford on Halory Leigh's 4 length win on November 30 at TP in the $50,000 Holiday Inaugural Stakes. After being claimed late spring for $80,000 on the advice of The Sheets office, Halory Leigh had won two CD allowance races and finished third once, and fourth twice (including The GR 1 Alabama) in her previous stakes tries, and has now earned about twice her purchase price and is looking for more-- we hope.
November 29, 2003 - O'Neill trained Fleetstreet Dancer claimed off the sheets in 2002. Fleetstreet Dancer, under jockey Jon Court at odds of 48-1, shocked favorite Admire Don to win the $2-Million Japan Cup Dirt by a nose at a drenched Tokyo race course on Saturday.
November 5, 2003 - Doug O'Neill eclipses Baffert's Oak Tree mark: Congratulations to Sheet customer Doug O'Neill on breaking Bob Baffert's record for most victories by trainer at Santa Anita's Oak Tree meeting.
October 16, 2003 - Two of our sheet players hit the pick six (worth $320,000) at Keeneland on Thursday. Both players had it for a dollar each. Congratulations to both.
September 1, 2003 - Saratoga: Sheets customer (who wishes to remain anonymous), hits PIC 6 worth $666,000.
August 9, 2003 - Joe Sweedler's French Charmer turned in an impressive performance at Laurel Park to win the $144,500 John D. Schapiro Memorial Breeder's Cup Handicap on August 2. Trainer Benson had cross-entered French Charmer in the $75,000 Battlefield Stakes on August 3 at Monmouth but opted to ship out of town for the bigger purse.
"Any [Ragozin] sheets player had a bet on him today," said Benson... "Joe told me 'Go for the $150,000. You
can't lose.' "
August 9, 2003 - DASHBOARD DRUMMER VALIDATES PURCHASE-
The new owners, which include Len Friedman of the Ragozin Speed Sheets, were already excited by the numbers Dashboard Drummer posted in Iowa.
With Iwinski on board, the purchase from Paulette and Bob Pogue went through.
His first start for the new barn was a smashing success as Dashboard Drummer ($10.80) rallied from far back on the speed-favoring sloppy track to win by 2 1/2 lengths over Deputy Storm, the 7-10 favorite.
August 2, 2003 - Congratulations to Sheets handicappers Bobby Brendler and Ken Daniels for their 2nd place finish in the Bally's Summer Stakes IV Contest, qualifying them for the NTRA Handicapping Championship to be held at Bally's in January 2004
June 25, 2003 - A Ragozin Sheets customer (who wishes to remain anonymous), was the sole winner of the one million plus pic 6 at CD. Congrats and job well done!
June 6, 2003 - At the just concluded Churchill meet, the top three trainers are all customers of the Sheets. Congrats to all three.
May 03, 2003 - Sheet player hits Derby day pic 6 @ CD: For an investment of just $288, he collected over $400,000
May 2003 - Frankel and the Bounce Theory - by Andrew Beyer
Jan 2003 - Our very own Len Friedman won the Suncoast Challenge handicapping contest (worth over $100,000).
2002 - We had 10 trainers in the top 50 trainers in by earnings. (2 of the 10 were in the top 10 by earnings).
2002 - We had 2 jockeys in the top 10 by earnings, as well as the leading rider in the nation.

[cj]

Winning contests is a whole different ballgame from playing the horses on a regular basis and trying to make a profit. If you are in a contest or just playing a day or two a week, maybe it pays to shell out the $35 for a card or whatever combo of races you need, but to do this every day trying to grind out a profit betting horses, that is a big whole to start from.

Think about it, lets assume you play 5 days a week, 3 cards a day, 45 weeks a year, which I would think a pro would be pretty close to those levels. That is $50 a day, or a total of $11,250. I'm not saying its not worth it, but you better be betting big money to hope to overcome this.

Also, could someone explain how the "Race of the Week" could be about 0 for the last 50? They were close this week, but the second place horse hurt them big.

[andicap]

Seem to me by tracking the trainers who use the Sheets you could indirectly handicap a race using the Sheets figuring that much of the time a trainer will enter the horse when he thinks he's going to peak a la his reading of the Sheets.

The above note also makes it clear that 5 people reading them can come up with 5 different horses. Or else a lot more people would have the longshots.

But another thing to warn about the Sheets. As a whole their odds are much depressed compared to a few years ago because many more people are using them and T-Graph. i would suggest people check out the Xtras because I doubt they are as popular and their odds might still hold. If you call their office they will send you past Xtras to try out, but you've got to read Cary Fotias' book. They are $20 a day with $10 at a few "special" tracks.
I haven't used them but loved the book.

[cnollfan]

Originally Posted by andicap

You've got to read Cary Fotias' book. They are $20 a day with $10 at a few "special" tracks. I haven't used them but loved the book.

Is that book "Blinkers Off", or does he have another one?

andicap: the "sheets" (specifically Ragozin) have been responsible for a lot of the money bet in New York (and to a lesser degree at other major tracks) for over 25 years. At one point in the late 80's and early 90's, it was guesstimated that about 40% of all the money bet at NYRA was from the "Rags" users.

[so.cal.fan]

Most long time Sheets users I know, are very serious horseplayers to begin with.
I have never been impressed enough to use them myself.
I know a few people who do well with them, more who give them up, because their own methods work just as well....not to say they don't improve their game using the sheets....I'm sure they do.....or at least many do. It's just like reading a book or articles on handicapping.....there is always a chance you will come up with something that triggers your own original idea......
EVERY WINNER I have ever known or know now........uses their own original insights to handicap and/or bet. This is the only thing consistent winners have in common. They develop an idea......and stick to it, regardless if it's currently "trendy" or not.

[kev]

CJ I can't tell ya why the ROTW suck's so bad at TG. I've used both TG and Rag's over a period of 5 years (off and on ). Reading TG over the past few years have become alot harder for me, that's why I'm using Rag's only now. Like I said early I pick my spots to play, I get the DRF on-line and look for races that looks like they can be playable and then I order the sheets for those races for $5.00 a race. I might spend $15 to $35 a weekend. I see no need to be paying for whole cards and most of the races will suck anyways, like a turf race where 2 or 3 horses might have ran on the surface, or msw and mc's............