Wood Memorial

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Grits

You're mistaken. I'm sorry, this is all there is to it. Verrazano was hit. He was hit in the stretch. I was there. I also watched the replay, the head on, repeatedly, backing up the stretch run--the NBC telecast, Sunday morning. I don't care what JV said in his interview about hand riding, the horse was hit, though, minimally, no more than three times. But, he WAS hit in the stretch. So, please, don't indicate the horse has never been hit. If you can find the head on, it will help you. Vyjack, who was said to be less mature, (even in his face--he looks it,) and a bit of a head case, Vyjack was not hit. .... I'm not usually one to argue this topic, the person to really listen to is Andy Serling.

Valazquez has said he never hit Verrazano, but he sure was swinging his arm a lot coming down the Aqueduct stretch on Saturday. Maybe his aim was bad.

[Robert Fischer]

All I can add is that this is a nice crop of 3yo routers, it may even have some grade1 horses, and there is plenty to debate and get excited about.

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by Grits

You're mistaken. I'm sorry, this is all there is to it. Verrazano was hit. He was hit in the stretch. I was there. I also watched the replay, the head on, repeatedly, backing up the stretch run--the NBC telecast, Sunday morning. I don't care what JV said in his interview about hand riding, the horse was hit, though, minimally, no more than three times. But, he WAS hit in the stretch. So, please, don't indicate the horse has never been hit. If you can find the head on, it will help you. Vyjack, who was said to be less mature, (even in his face--he looks it,) and a bit of a head case, Vyjack was not hit. .... I'm not usually one to argue this topic, the person to really listen to is Andy Serling.

You are exactly right. I believe he was hit a few times right handed, then JRV switched sticks and gave him a left handed hit. He wasn't whipped in the final 50-75 yards or so.

[Tom]

He wasn't whipped in the final 50-75 yards or so.

....because he had nothing left to give?

[Tread]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

No, but posters with a dickish attitude...those are the ones we require a certain ROI from...look it up in the rule book...it's there...

Does this apply to admins with dickish attitudes, like you and CJ?

[cj]

Originally Posted by Tread

Does this apply to admins with dickish attitudes, like you and CJ?

Funny you would choose to address this first rather than being wrong about the whip. That says a lot.

[Producer]

The flip side to many people loving Normandy Invasions race in the wood......if the pace was faster, and he wasn't allowed to drop 15-20 legnths off of it, which by Chad Browns comments about them wanting the horse closer to the pace, I don't believe he would of been, would he still have finished the way he did after having to spend more early energy staying reasonably close to the pace?

The way this race was run, like a turf/synthetic race, I don't see how anybody can draw any kind of conclusions from it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Tread

Does this apply to admins with dickish attitudes, like you and CJ?

BEYER!

[Leparoux]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

No, but posters with a dickish attitude...those are the ones we require a certain ROI from...look it up in the rule book...it's there...

Well played.

[raybo]

Originally Posted by Producer

The flip side to many people loving Normandy Invasions race in the wood......if the pace was faster, and he wasn't allowed to drop 15-20 legnths off of it, which by Chad Browns comments about them wanting the horse closer to the pace, I don't believe he would of been, would he still have finished the way he did after having to spend more early energy staying reasonably close to the pace?

The way this race was run, like a turf/synthetic race, I don't see how anybody can draw any kind of conclusions from it.

Agree, the pace was what it was, can't be changed or "if'ed" to death. Under a different pace scenario things likely would have transpired differently. Trying to transpose that race scenario on a future race, with different horses, is counter-productive. Wait til all the data is in, and they're all about to run in the same race, then do your comparisons. It's more productive to do you "if'ing" relating to today's race, what if the pace is slow, what if the pace is fast, then try to cover both possibilities.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by raybo

Agree, the pace was what it was, can't be changed or "if'ed" to death. Under a different pace scenario things likely would have transpired differently. Trying to transpose that race scenario on a future race, with different horses, is counter-productive. Wait til all the data is in, and they're all about to run in the same race, then do your comparisons. It's more productive to do you "if'ing" relating to today's race, what if the pace is slow, what if the pace is fast, then try to cover both possibilities.

Ray we pretty much know who's in.I think Goldcents and Itsmyluckyday are going to find themselves uncomfortably close to the lead.There are no throw in rabbits off the top of the head that has earned points.I don't think the pace will be necessarily "lightning" but it will be crowded by a bunch of horses accustomed to running half miles in x time and connections fearing it!It's going to be pretty funny to watch IMO.Anyway,I don't think we have to wait til May 4th to start brain crunching over this!I've got a fever.And the only prescription is more cow bell!Let the derby fever rage brother.I got it.I think this is a good crop.I'm giddy!

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Valuist

You are exactly right. I believe he was hit a few times right handed, then JRV switched sticks and gave him a left handed hit. He wasn't whipped in the final 50-75 yards or so.

Folks, we are wrong and Tread is right. Verrazano was not hit. If you have the NBC telecast watch the head on of the stretch run. Valazquez waves his right hand with the stick in it two or three times in a pendulum-like motion, but the whip never touches Verrazano. Then he switches to his left hand and raises the whip out to his side as if he is going to reach back and give V a good whack. But he doesn't. He just lets his hand drop and goes back to hand riding.
This is hard to explain, but JRV is holding the whip with his fingers in towards his body and when he swings his arm he does so with his elbow as a fulcrum. The riders who are whipping their horses are doing so using their entire arm. There is always space between the whip and Verrazano's body.

Watch that video. It takes place right after the Evinrude commercial and the pictures of Verrazano entering the winners circle. Watch it in Hi Def.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Tread

One last point, and then I'm done with this thread until Derby Day. Another reason it is clear to me that the connections did not care wholeheartedly about this race or his margin of victory is that he was never whipped, which I'm assuming were part of the instructions. Actually, as best as I can tell, Verrazano has never been whipped in any of his races. Even forgetting the track/conditions differences, is it of any use to compare raw times or fractions on a horse that has been pretty vigorously whipped (Goldencents) with one that has not been whipped at all? Guess we will see.

You aren't the same guy that immortalized Gemologist last year are you?I hope you aren't seeing reality from the narrow chinks of your Aqueduct cavern.And if you are that guy I want to say thanks for sparing us the 100,000 words this April.

That said,I like Verrazano and it has nothing to do with wether he was whipped or not.To me that proves or disproves nothing.I think he hasn't faced much.Not his fault.His manner of winning doesn't nail him to any running style IMO,nor does it display his speed capacity.I expect a great race out of him on Derby day.He has some stamina bred in him by mom and I think he has more gear than the Wood/TB Derby.

[nijinski]

From Bloodhorse Sunday...

"He was already going, and Vyjack came to him, and I looked at him," Velazquez said. "I never hit Verrazano. I was like, he's running good enough that I don't have to hit him. There was nobody on the outside, and by the wire I looked and Normandy Invasion came, and I never even saw that horse. I thought Vyjack was the only one fighting me.

"So I went to hand-ride him and show him the whip and tried to keep his attention because I know he kind of waits, and he's looking at the infield, and I just kind of got his attention. And all of a sudden Normandy Invasion got close at the wire and I never saw him. I didn't hit Verrazano. I didn't want to overdo things. He was doing enough to beat the other horse, anyway


Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ixzz2QDneWuBWy .

[raybo]

Originally Posted by CincyHorseplayer

Ray we pretty much know who's in.I think Goldcents and Itsmyluckyday are going to find themselves uncomfortably close to the lead.There are no throw in rabbits off the top of the head that has earned points.I don't think the pace will be necessarily "lightning" but it will be crowded by a bunch of horses accustomed to running half miles in x time and connections fearing it!It's going to be pretty funny to watch IMO.Anyway,I don't think we have to wait til May 4th to start brain crunching over this!I've got a fever.And the only prescription is more cow bell!Let the derby fever rage brother.I got it.I think this is a good crop.I'm giddy!

Rod,

Do you know the variant, adjusted times, pace and speed figures, etc., for all the races all the horses have run, or will have run before Derby day? No, so you don't have all their data yet. That's what I mean when I say wait until all the data is in. At this point, unless you are creating your own variants, adjusted times, and figures, and no other Derby entries will run another race before the Derby, then you don't have all the data yet. So, how can you possibly compare all these horses to one another, and the field as a whole? Maybe if you don't use any numbers or figures you could, but most here use numbers and/or figures.