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Old 06-27-2018, 03:03 PM   #61
johnhannibalsmith
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There are many interviews on youtube from the early 80s onward where he state his feelings on trade, politics etc. and are all consistent, unlike most politicians who change like the weather.

...
You mean back when he was a NY Democrat?
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:17 PM   #62
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Operative word here being "was."
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:07 PM   #63
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I have to wonder if the production facility in Australia will not be closed after all ... is this part of southern hemisphere USA????

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...adelaide-plant
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:22 PM   #64
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Operative word here being "was."
Agreed!
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:48 PM   #65
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There are many interviews on youtube from the early 80s onward where he state his feelings on trade, politics etc. and are all consistent, unlike most politicians who change like the weather.

Consistent with his political views when he was a NYC Democrat? Like before 2009?


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Before Donald Trump was a front-running Republican presidential candidate, the real estate mogul believed that the nation's economy ran better when Democrats were in control and that Hillary Clinton would be a strong negotiator with foreign nations.

"In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat," Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer in a 2004 interview. "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats. ...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans."
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/21/polit...rat/index.html
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Old 06-28-2018, 09:38 AM   #66
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Interesting that Harlay, a clothing and accessories company that happens to also make motorcycles, gets caught up in the tariff issue again. Back in the '80s, the company lobbied Reagan and got tariffs bumped from 4.4% to 49.4% on imported motorcycles over 700ccs. The tariff was scheduled to phase out in five years, was hailed as saving the company, and Harley even claimed "victory" by having it ended early. But there were side effects. This resulted in the Japanese manufacturers suddenly coming out with 698cc models, the construction of several foreign motorcycle assembly plants in the U.S., and naturally higher motorcycle prices for all brands.

So now they want to open a European plant to skirt the recent increase in EU tariffs. Okay, makes business sense I suppose, but will result in a loss of American jobs, and probably higher prices for everyone. <sigh>

Trade is a complex issue, and free trade is pretty much a myth. Trump has a ton of work to do to reverse decades of corporate initiatives that moved so many jobs offshore. It's gonna be fun to watch the fireworks, but not so much fun to watch prices shoot higher, and the side effects of fiddling with trade have huge impacts, mostly negative, on the economy. Those decades of "cheap foreign-made products" promoting policies will be crashing back on us with some serious blowback. The financial chickens will be coming home to roost.

As a side note, I've ridden a few Harleys, and while the Sportster is kinda fun to ride, I find the bigger models too heavy. Harley has never come close to making something like my current ride, a BMW R1200GS, with the 125HP water boxer engine, space shuttle electronics, and a svelte 525 pounds wet. It's heavenly...
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:01 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate View Post
Interesting that Harlay, a clothing and accessories company that happens to also make motorcycles, gets caught up in the tariff issue again. Back in the '80s, the company lobbied Reagan and got tariffs bumped from 4.4% to 49.4% on imported motorcycles over 700ccs. The tariff was scheduled to phase out in five years, was hailed as saving the company, and Harley even claimed "victory" by having it ended early. But there were side effects. This resulted in the Japanese manufacturers suddenly coming out with 698cc models, the construction of several foreign motorcycle assembly plants in the U.S., and naturally higher motorcycle prices for all brands.

So now they want to open a European plant to skirt the recent increase in EU tariffs. Okay, makes business sense I suppose, but will result in a loss of American jobs, and probably higher prices for everyone. <sigh>

Trade is a complex issue, and free trade is pretty much a myth. Trump has a ton of work to do to reverse decades of corporate initiatives that moved so many jobs offshore. It's gonna be fun to watch the fireworks, but not so much fun to watch prices shoot higher, and the side effects of fiddling with trade have huge impacts, mostly negative, on the economy. Those decades of "cheap foreign-made products" promoting policies will be crashing back on us with some serious blowback. The financial chickens will be coming home to roost.

As a side note, I've ridden a few Harleys, and while the Sportster is kinda fun to ride, I find the bigger models too heavy. Harley has never come close to making something like my current ride, a BMW R1200GS, with the 125HP water boxer engine, space shuttle electronics, and a svelte 525 pounds wet. It's heavenly...
Sharp post.
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Old 06-28-2018, 12:33 PM   #68
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tariff not reason for factories outside U.S.

President Trump’s feud with Harley-Davidson is sad to watch, but it reveals several challenges facing American businesses. I understand the issue, but I continue to believe Harley’s management made a grave error by blaming its announcement of factories outside the U.S. on the tariff tiff. This will be over before any motorcycles roll off any new assembly lines in Europe.................

This trend is underscored by the fact American motorcycle registration peaked at 549,200 in 2006 and finished in 2017 at 288,800. Meanwhile, European motorcycle registration has been coming on strong, and Harley’s share of that expanding pie has been growing at an even faster pace.........................

I’m not arguing against the business rationale of this decision. I am just saying it was made long before America got into a tariff tiff with Europe.


https://www.wstreet.com/investing/st...ley_day_3.html
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:46 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate View Post

Trade is a complex issue, and free trade is pretty much a myth.
Trade is not a complex issue. The bottom line is that it is a voluntary transaction between a buyer and a seller, both of whom are satisfied with the outcome.

What is complex is a third party, government, inserting itself into the process because in its infinite wisdom, the government is not satisfied with the outcome.

A letter from a professor of economics at George Mason University, published in the Washington Post, sums up our current situation.

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Robert J. Samuelson is correct that President Trump’s trade war will not end with a U.S. victory [“We’re going to lose this trade war,” op-ed, June 25]. But the reason runs deeper than Mr. Trump’s misguided focus on the trade deficit and his antagonizing our allies. The ultimate reason we will not win this trade war is that Mr. Trump is waging it against us. Mr. Trump’s tariffs are designed to make goods and services — including inputs for U.S. factories — not only artificially scarcer for us today but also scarcer for us into the indefinite future. The guiding philosophy of this administration’s trade policy is unalloyed mercantilism, which has among its core goals the maximization of exports and the minimization of imports. And so what Trump regards as a “victorious” outcome of his trade belligerence — his objective in waging this insane “war” — is a global trading system in which Americans, year after year after year, export more and import less. Foreigners will get more of what we produce, and we will get less of what they produce. An American “victory,” therefore, will result in non-Americans being artificially enriched at our expense. This war is one that we Americans should fervently hope to “lose.”
https://cafehayek.com/

For those who get a tingle down their legs with the thought of fewer imports, remember that you can make that personal decision for yourself right now. Just don't presume to force your decision on others.

And if Trump's campaign people were correct in saying that his tariffs would increase the cost of living by 15%, that means that without those imports, you will be able to buy only 85% of the products you currently buy.

Yes, true free trade is harder and harder to find. But why make the situation even worse? Why not focus on fixing the real problem?
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Old 06-30-2018, 01:27 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Clocker View Post
Trade is not a complex issue. The bottom line is that it is a voluntary transaction between a buyer and a seller, both of whom are satisfied with the outcome.

What is complex is a third party, government, inserting itself into the process because in its infinite wisdom, the government is not satisfied with the outcome.

...
...
...

Yes, true free trade is harder and harder to find. But why make the situation even worse? Why not focus on fixing the real problem?
Your statements appear to contradict themselves. Trade is a very complex issue, in the international space, simply because government HAS to, by definition, be involved. Why? Because, in theory, only the government can balance the scales across all products to ensure a level-playing field that does not give advantage to one industry/country at the cost of another.

Intermediation, the aspect of government involvement that takes a parasitic slice of the action, comes into play at anything above a simple barter system where I trade you 3 eggs my chickens laid for one ripe, red tomato from your garden. But even that's tarnished in that barter income is supposed to be declared to the IRS and is eligible for FICA takeout.

I'm not sure what you mean by "focus in fixing the real problem". I agree that a trade war is counter-productive, but that tariffs by and large, are not necessarily evil. Done properly, in what can only be a complex arrangement with all the different entities and products and currencies involved, all parties can benefit. In that sense, "free trade" is possible - but never observed.

My personal take on what the problem is that .GOV, as often occurs, is missing the point. Or rather, not missing the point, in that they are bought and paid for by the elites. The real problem is not that China or another country is being evil and doing us wrong with shoddy trade agreements. The real problem is that corporate America pushed through laws and trade agreements that allowed them to export jobs overseas, skirt EPA regulations, and maximize profits and funnel them to the executives and other corporate insiders. For almost 50 years, the side effects were that this arrangement, which included foreign countries to buying up our debt, resulted in exporting higher rates of inflation, keeping prices artificially low for consumers. That model has run its course, and rather than Make America Great Again, Trump will have his hands full with Keep America Solvent and Save The Dollar.

Tasks I might add, that are doomed for failure as the American Empire continues to decline.
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:21 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate View Post
Your statements appear to contradict themselves. Trade is a very complex issue, in the international space, simply because government HAS to, by definition, be involved. Why? Because, in theory, only the government can balance the scales across all products to ensure a level-playing field that does not give advantage to one industry/country at the cost of another.

Why does the government have to be involved? Why can't I decide for myself what I want to buy and who I want to buy it from? Who decides what is fair?

The notion of a level playing field is meaningless. Business and life are based on advantages. You do what you do best, and let others do the things they do best. Why shouldn't the government create a level playing field such that Iowa doesn't have a big advantage in producing pork or Nebraska in producing corn? Surely those advantages are not fair to the folks in Alaska or Hawaii or Maine who like to sit down to a meal of pork chops and corn. Should Alaska put tariffs on Iowa pork to "balance the scales"?

China has an advantage in manufacturing low end consumer goods and the US has an advantage in high-tech services, including intellectual property. Should our advantage in IP be handicapped to level the playing field for countries that are less able?

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "focus in fixing the real problem". I agree that a trade war is counter-productive, but that tariffs by and large, are not necessarily evil.
Tariffs are evil. They distort free choice in the market and they increase prices for consumers. They protect minor groups that can't compete at the cost of the majority. Trump's steel tariffs protect the steel industry and the 140,000 jobs it provides, to the detriment of the companies that use steel as an input, and the 5 million jobs they provide. And all of it is paid for by consumers. What was the first major result of the steel tariffs? A big increase in prices for American-made steel. Who pays for that? The American consumer.

That is a real problem. Another real problem in trade is theft of intellectual property by other countries. Trump claims that his tariffs will fix that problem. Can anyone explain how greatly increased taxes (i.e., tariffs) on Chinese steel or Canadian lumber will prevent theft of IP?
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:55 AM   #72
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only the government can balance the scales across all products to ensure a level-playing field that does not give advantage to one industry/country at the cost of another.
Canada has a big advantage over the US in producing lumber. They are cutting old growth timber on government property, while there is much less old growth timber available here, and US companies are usually cutting on private property. The Canadian timber companies pay a lot less to cut that timber than do American loggers.

Is that fair? If Canadian companies charge less for their lumber than US companies, how is that bad for US consumers? The US only produces about two-thirds of the lumber we use, and most of the rest comes from Canada. Domestic companies cannot meet the demand, so how does it hurt us to have cheaper lumber from Canada?

Canada's advantage in producing lumber is not "at the cost" of the US, it is to the advantage of US consumers. Trump's tariffs on Canadian lumber, supposedly in the interest of national security, is to the disadvantage of US consumers. How does that level the playing field?
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Old 06-30-2018, 03:48 PM   #73
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Canada announced yesterday their socialistic/fascist plan to save the economy. Canad will now subsidize industries, pay private sector employees with tax dollars and extend unemployment benefits. All you people looking for fascism start looking to the north of the U.S. border, because Canada is in bed with China.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:59 PM   #74
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Canada announced yesterday their socialistic/fascist plan to save the economy. Canad will now subsidize industries, pay private sector employees with tax dollars and extend unemployment benefits. All you people looking for fascism start looking to the north of the U.S. border, because Canada is in bed with China.
You’re nothing but a useful tool.

North Korea is our friend. Canada is our enemy. Because Canada (not North Korea) is in bed with China.

WTF happened to you? And all the other useful tools posting here?
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:52 PM   #75
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President Trump’s feud with Harley-Davidson is sad to watch, but it reveals several challenges facing American businesses. I understand the issue, but I continue to believe Harley’s management made a grave error by blaming its announcement of factories outside the U.S. on the tariff tiff. This will be over before any motorcycles roll off any new assembly lines in Europe.................

This trend is underscored by the fact American motorcycle registration peaked at 549,200 in 2006 and finished in 2017 at 288,800. Meanwhile, European motorcycle registration has been coming on strong, and Harley’s share of that expanding pie has been growing at an even faster pace.........................

I’m not arguing against the business rationale of this decision. I am just saying it was made long before America got into a tariff tiff with Europe.


https://www.wstreet.com/investing/st...ley_day_3.html
Ding, Ding, Ding. This post is the winner. Decisions to move production overseas takes 1-2 years of study of many economic factors. This decision was in the works before Trump ever got elected.
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