Tournaments

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

What I like, well I like quite a few things about tourneys.

1. They make me look for other factors other than just who looks like the best horse. So it makes me a better player in general.

2. You get a lot of action for not too much money (unless someone caps out in a small race contest).

3. You can play for a reasonable amount of money. A bad day at playing contests are almost assuredly less than a bad day live betting.

4. No CRW teams

5. Breakage

6. Its fun to take down the big name pro's, of which I have done a few times.

Yeah, one thing I didn't mention but it goes to "chasing" and "tilting". There's a finite amount of money in play. Which is good for me because of my propensity to chase a bit too often.

Which big name pro's have you taken down? I'd be curious to hear who other player have on their radar as being elite.

For me, there's a group that always seems to be high on the leader boards.

Tony Zhou, Farron McCubbins, Jim Benes, Christian Hellmers, Garrett Skiba just to name a few.

They're all SUPER tough.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

What I like, well I like quite a few things about tourneys.

1. They make me look for other factors other than just who looks like the best horse. So it makes me a better player in general.

2. You get a lot of action for not too much money (unless someone caps out in a small race contest).

3. You can play for a reasonable amount of money. A bad day at playing contests are almost assuredly less than a bad day live betting.

4. No CRW teams

5. Breakage

6. Its fun to take down the big name pro's, of which I have done a few times.

What's a CRW team?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Yeah, one thing I didn't mention but it goes to "chasing" and "tilting". There's a finite amount of money in play. Which is good for me because of my propensity to chase a bit too often.

Which big name pro's have you taken down? I'd be curious to hear who other player have on their radar as being elite.

For me, there's a group that always seems to be high on the leader boards.

Tony Zhou, Farron McCubbins, Jim Benes, Christian Hellmers, Garrett Skiba just to name a few.

They're all SUPER tough.

These "elite tournament players"...how successful are they when they play the game the "parimutuel" way? I ask because, in poker, the tournament stars are often woefully overmatched when they venture into the top cash games.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

These "elite tournament players"...how successful are they when they play the game the "parimutuel" way? I ask because, in poker, the tournament stars are often woefully overmatched when they venture into the top cash games.

Excellent question. I don't have a clue.

Speaking for myself. Straight pari-mutual play has become a small portion of the equation.

The times I get involved is when I'm in a mythical tournament and play straight on the ones I like the best.

Or if a group of races looks juicy for a pick 4 or 5.

OR, when I capp for a TVG shift. As I make my way though those days I'll make a move or two if I see something I think is out of line.

Those bets are smaller though. I have less confidence in them because they are not usually my go to tracks of NYRA or Southern Cal.

Another great thing about tourney's for me is like golfers who play a restricted number of events.

I'd quickly burn out if I looked every day.

It's not unusual for me to play a tourney and not crack open a form until three weeks later at the next one.

[JeremyJet]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

4. No CRW teams

This is the primary reason for my question about tournaments. I'm looking for a alternative way to play because of the crazy shit going on with late odds changes. I'm still going to handicap the way I usually do (make an odds line), but it's impossible to play the way I want without know the odds I'm getting. It's a darn shame it's gotten to this point.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

What's a CRW team?

Computer Robotic Wagering

[JeremyJet]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

What's a CRW team?

The computer teams that are operating under different rules than the rest of us.

[Mulerider]

Originally Posted by JeremyJet

This is the primary reason for my question about tournaments. I'm looking for a alternative way to play because of the crazy shit going on with late odds changes. I'm still going to handicap the way I usually do (make an odds line), but it's impossible to play the way I want without know the odds I'm getting. It's a darn shame it's gotten to this point.

The late odds changes can burn you in a tournament as well. The other day I'd picked Firenze Fire in a pick-and-pray based on his ML. I was certainly not happy to see those late odds. Of course I was so far behind it was irrelevant to my chances of winning this particular tournament anyway, but still...

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by Mulerider

The late odds changes can burn you in a tournament as well. The other day I'd picked Firenze Fire in a pick-and-pray based on his ML. I was certainly not happy to see those late odds. Of course I was so far behind it was irrelevant to my chances of winning this particular tournament anyway, but still...

Me too, in a big event for me as well, but the pain is spread out among many players when the of the course of the day and same thing happens. The type of horses i pick go up more than down for the most part.

[JeremyJet]

Originally Posted by GMB@BP

Me too, in a big event for me as well, but the pain is spread out among many players when the of the course of the day and same thing happens. The type of horses i pick go up more than down for the most part.

I had enough after what transpired in the Indiana Derby. I liked the #1 horse ... TRIGGER something. He's 15/1 early in the wagering and I thought that was kind of insane. So he levels off at like 9/1 or 10/1 with under 10 minutes till post. Goes in the gate at 9/1 and I'm happy. When the gates open he's now down to 6/1. He got nailed at the wire, but still ...

I've had enough. Handicapping the horses is hard enough ... now I have to handicap the odds board. Pure insanity if you ask me.

[BCOURTNEY]

Originally Posted by JeremyJet

I had enough after what transpired in the Indiana Derby. I liked the #1 horse ... TRIGGER something. He's 15/1 early in the wagering and I thought that was kind of insane. So he levels off at like 9/1 or 10/1 with under 10 minutes till post. Goes in the gate at 9/1 and I'm happy. When the gates open he's now down to 6/1. He got nailed at the wire, but still ...

I've had enough. Handicapping the horses is hard enough ... now I have to handicap the odds board. Pure insanity if you ask me.

The unfortunate reality is that handicapping means both selection and wagering acumen now. It means understanding and handicapping where the tote board will be ... just like the horses. If picking mythical $2 win/place bets (selection based handicapping) then there are pick and pray contests are the best (the lock in the selections at the beginning of the contest), of course the flip side of that scene are the stabbing players that focus on selecting horses at 12 to 1 or more on multiple tickets, this is a skill also and deadly when combined with some infinite bankrolls (some players are backed)... and when they connect a few the tourney can get challenging.

A good rule of thumb to remember in large P&P contest having more than 20 to 30 players is that the median payout per race in the tournament is around 11-12 bucks per race. So if you are in a 10 race competition, you will need to target a WP total of 100-110 dollars. In a 1 to 5 person contest you can target around 8 dollars per race to be viable, depending on the races involved. In a cash tournament, typically if the prize pool is only paying out 4 or 5 spots of 200 you will need to target 8 to 12 times you bankroll to make the final stretch. In a tournament structure like Monmouth for example which is live money ( they pay out like 24-28 spots ) you need to target maybe 3 times your bankroll, it's a "wide" pay out structure. Anyways there is a game for everyone, the socializing is interesting, the competition is refreshing, it's fun.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by BCOURTNEY

The unfortunate reality is that handicapping means both selection and wagering acumen now. It means understanding and handicapping where the tote board will be ... just like the horses. If picking mythical $2 win/place bets (selection based handicapping) then there are pick and pray contests are the best (the lock in the selections at the beginning of the contest), of course the flip side of that scene are the stabbing players that focus on selecting horses at 12 to 1 or more on multiple tickets, this is a skill also and deadly when combined with some infinite bankrolls (some players are backed)... and when they connect a few the tourney can get challenging.

A good rule of thumb to remember in large P&P contest having more than 20 to 30 players is that the median payout per race in the tournament is around 11-12 bucks per race. So if you are in a 10 race competition, you will need to target a WP total of 100-110 dollars. In a 1 to 5 person contest you can target around 8 dollars per race to be viable, depending on the races involved. In a cash tournament, typically if the prize pool is only paying out 4 or 5 spots of 200 you will need to target 8 to 12 times you bankroll to make the final stretch. In a tournament structure like Monmouth for example which is live money ( they pay out like 24-28 spots ) you need to target maybe 3 times your bankroll, it's a "wide" pay out structure. Anyways there is a game for everyone, the socializing is interesting, the competition is refreshing, it's fun.

well said.

You cannot handicap the same when there is a large field, or should I say make the same picks.

I generally play in the smaller tournaments and pick and pray. I hate the blind stabbing that happens in the live games at the end.

[BCOURTNEY]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

You're qualified for more than me. I have one NHC. One BCBC and I sold a PWC which I recently won at Santa Anita. It conflicts with opening weekend at Oaklawn.

The NHC is a very cool tournament. A must play just because of the atmosphere and the chance at an Eclipse award.

The BCBC is the BEST! Live money. Two day tourney with the best racing in the world. Huge prize pool. Chance at bonuses.

Two years ago I was alive for a $1 million bonus. Was 2nd going into the last race. Went all in on California Chrome. $50k. Ended up with the tri for $500 which still dropped me from 2nd to 14th.

This year I finished 10th. DQ'ed into 9th. Was again alive for the bonus. Again went all in. Had $22,000 to win on Collected. But did have a $3500 exacta box with Gun Runner.

Haven't qualified for the bonus yet for this year. Something I intend to rectify by winning Del Mar on the 28th & 29th. I hope.

Jump on in for Del Mar. More the merrier. Excellent tournament. FABULOUS place to play in the Skyroom on the 6th floor. Chance to compare your skills against an elite field.

Won't have to beat Thask either when he retires after I throttle him on our "Texas Chain" match on Sunday. :-)

This is great, thanks for sharing, thanks for interview with Hellmers too, that tourney needing someone to rock the mic. The competition and stories, we need to infuse that into the game in a digital format. Del Mar looks fun but if I qualify or buy in then I can't attend Hawthorne.. (Anyone going to Hawthorne next week? if so which OTB?)

I do want take the BCBC for a spin for the competition and experience, prize money is gravy. Primary concern with the BCBC is the rule change - all players wagers are public record, why would anyone share with other players xx years of selection and wagering strategy development? That's a little bit of a turn off to me, some of the more talented folks agree it's a bit much. I mean we aren't asking hedge funds to show us their reciepe? They can make a 3-5 person audit team instead.. Hmm, I'm thinking Pegasus instead?

I'm hopeful the tracks and the executives recognize the unique position to strengthen the tournament scene and space and embrace and grow the future of this sport and handle alongside sports betting in this digital age. This is not a spectator's sport.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by BCOURTNEY

The unfortunate reality is that handicapping means both selection and wagering acumen now. It means understanding and handicapping where the tote board will be ... just like the horses. If picking mythical $2 win/place bets (selection based handicapping) then there are pick and pray contests are the best (the lock in the selections at the beginning of the contest), of course the flip side of that scene are the stabbing players that focus on selecting horses at 12 to 1 or more on multiple tickets, this is a skill also and deadly when combined with some infinite bankrolls (some players are backed)... and when they connect a few the tourney can get challenging.

A good rule of thumb to remember in large P&P contest having more than 20 to 30 players is that the median payout per race in the tournament is around 11-12 bucks per race. So if you are in a 10 race competition, you will need to target a WP total of 100-110 dollars. In a 1 to 5 person contest you can target around 8 dollars per race to be viable, depending on the races involved. In a cash tournament, typically if the prize pool is only paying out 4 or 5 spots of 200 you will need to target 8 to 12 times you bankroll to make the final stretch. In a tournament structure like Monmouth for example which is live money ( they pay out like 24-28 spots ) you need to target maybe 3 times your bankroll, it's a "wide" pay out structure. Anyways there is a game for everyone, the socializing is interesting, the competition is refreshing, it's fun.

I think you've overestimated what it takes in mythical tournaments. My rule of thumb has always been to average $8.00 per race which will almost always land you in the top ten.

People at the top, especially in much larger fields, tend to get very conservative towards the end of tournaments which keep the top totals down.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by BCOURTNEY

This is great, thanks for sharing, thanks for interview with Hellmers too, that tourney needing someone to rock the mic. The competition and stories, we need to infuse that into the game in a digital format. Del Mar looks fun but if I qualify or buy in then I can't attend Hawthorne.. (Anyone going to Hawthorne next week? if so which OTB?)

I do want take the BCBC for a spin for the competition and experience, prize money is gravy. Primary concern with the BCBC is the rule change - all players wagers are public record, why would anyone share with other players xx years of selection and wagering strategy development? That's a little bit of a turn off to me, some of the more talented folks agree it's a bit much. I mean we aren't asking hedge funds to show us their reciepe? They can make a 3-5 person audit team instead.. Hmm, I'm thinking Pegasus instead?

I'm hopeful the tracks and the executives recognize the unique position to strengthen the tournament scene and space and embrace and grow the future of this sport and handle alongside sports betting in this digital age. This is not a spectator's sport.

I couldn't care less if they audit and share my plays. I'm just one of 275 entrants. I think the numbers will turn into a huge swirl that nobody will care about.