Controversial Thread Alert! Super Trainers. Good for the game? Bad for the game?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by AndyC

How can you do anything other than accept and adapt? There are many ways to cheat outside of using PEDs. Accepting and adapting doesn't mean you are against efforts to minimize cheating.

Do you accept and adapt that there are still people who drive their cars over the speed limit even though the highway patrol spends countless hours trying to stop drivers from doing so?

Bad analogy.

You work to stop the cheating. Period. It’s inane to say it can’t be done, it just takes the will to do it. This ain’t rocket science, nor do the cheaters know anything their non-cheating counterparts don’t.

[Denny]

PA,

I don't need the abuse from you.

**** off.

[Tom]

Buh-bye.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Because you said cheating’s always happened, and “adapt.”

What’s adapt supposed to me except to accept it and adapt accordingly.

You have another meaning for saying to adapt?

You and I have ABSOLUTELY NO POWER to enforce the laws of racing.

NONE.

So what the **** do you want ME to do about it, except learn some way to deal with it, until things change for the better(or)?

ADAPT or die. It's pretty ****ing simple.

And it certainly DOESN'T MEAN I DEFEND CHEATERS.

Should you and I go to the barns and run inspections ourselves? Perform some out of competition testing? What the hell do you want to do?

Complain on a message board? Lot of good that does.

So, yeah, ADAPT or quit. Lots of people seem to be quitting...that's fine. I choose not to.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

PA,

I don't need the abuse from you.

**** off.

And I don't need you posting lies about me, so don't look for me to apologize. I couldn't care less whether you stay or go.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by papillon

I don't know very much about gene-doping, so I'm putting a caveat at the outset.

With traditional doping there are problems that arise with use overtime.

With testosterone and EPO, the longer you use, the less your own body makes, so that you become wholly dependant on supplimental sources over time. If a horse is raised on supplements, you'd risk having an animal that would cease to do much of anything if it were prevented from receiving continued supplements even for a short time. You'd go from having an athelete to a couch potato overnight.

I would think that the benefit of an unraced 2 yo starting from nowhere as a 3yo, would be that they would be less likely to come up for OOC testing for awhile, and then the testing will be pretty predictable, almost always right after the race.You have to be a moron to get caught if you know when the test is coming.

This would give somewhat of an edge because the early races will take less out of the horse, because the horses is hopped all the way up, whereas his crop mates have been running with less of a buffer, for longer, taking more of a toll.

FWIW the timing from the KY Derby to the Belmont is perfect for a classic EPO/testosterone regime to avoid testing, because you know exactly when you'll be tested and it almost splits perfectly into three very tidy 3 week regiments if your last race before the Derby was 3 weeks earlier: Supplement the day after your last prep test, by the KY Derby you'll pass the tests, but still have the benefit. Then re-up the day after the KY Derby post race test, and hold your breath that the Preakness is still the joke-test race, then top off again the day after the Preakness test for the Belmont. With the Preakness, you'd prob want to do a smaller amount, just to be safe.

Thank you for your posts and replys to me...they are very intelligent and informative...very refreshing, considering some of the banter that goes on here (and that most of us are somewhat nonplused by)....it seems to me that there simply must be some regime improvements, diet wise, medication-wise, and novel conditioning stratagems in play now then back in BigRed's day...wasn't this the first TC winner in a very long time, if not ever, to go unraced as a 2 yr old...?

It just seems like a new ball game now...with the Super- breeders hooking up with the Super-owners, and the Super-trainer to put out the Super-horse(s) with the sole intent of an abbreviated stellar career, then off to the sire shop they go just as fast as they possibly can....there's little longevity to their (the horses) careers anymore....its all so calculated....and programmed by increasingly consolidating networks of profit sharing and co-mingling Super- interests...trending toward pseudo-monopoly...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Thank you for your posts and replys to me...they are very intelligent and informative...

How do you know? Did you verify all the info given?

Not saying what papillon posted was wrong, but just curious why you say the above. Or do you just take things posted here at face value if they are posted in a pleasant-enough manner?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

How do you know? Did you verify all the info given?

Not saying what papillon posted was wrong, but just curious why you say the above. Or do you just take things posted here at face value if they are posted in a pleasant-enough manner?

No Mike, I did not verify the info Papillon has written here...but anyone who engages my posts in such a civil, educated, and enlightened manner of discourse as this person, this butterfly of a person has, indeed has my approval....THIS is the kind of dialogue I crave here...

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

No Mike, I did not verify the info Papillon has written here...but anyone who engages my posts in such a civil, educated, and enlightened manner of discourse as this person, this butterfly of a person has, indeed has my approval....THIS is the kind of dialogue I crave here...

Even if it's total BS?

That's a weird way to live. Makes you kind of gullible, don't you think?

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Even if it's total BS?

That's a weird way to live. Makes you kind of gullible, don't you think?

After looking through some of Papillon's threads and post, I see nothing but sincere participation and honest dialogue... But you are right, I can be gullible at times, at least as much or maybe more than average Joe, but I try to weigh things over and learn as much by a persons TONE that beacons through, regardless of the topic, in my opinion, Papillon's tone is solid....but granted, one can not always judge a book by its cover, nor should we keep judging them by their former once said statements or opinions.....none of us are really as monolithic mentally as we think we are...AND we change, discard former beliefs...learn, and as you say...adapt....I am not the same person I was 3 years ago, when I perhaps offended you and other with my religious diatribes...but you still hold that against me, as if my opinions then, are still my opinions now...you still ban my participation in off-topic, you have a fixed idea of who I am and always will be.....you don't see me as a person...you show a curious lack of evolving or adapting in some areas, just like the rest of us...you are human too you know, Mike...

[papillon]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Even if it's total BS?

That's a weird way to live. Makes you kind of gullible, don't you think?

This one's a very good, sport neutral primer on Testosterone:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...2/#!po=27.4194

This one mentions how using it over time will inhibit your ability to produce it on your own:

https://dopinglinkki.fi/en/info-bank...d-testosterone

This is on cycling, it explains EPO:

http://www.velonews.com/2014/02/trai...g-drugs_317590


This is another about how to dope as a cyclist just like Lance:

https://www.theverge.com/2013/1/17/3...ing-technology

This is an article from the NY Times from 1991, it talks about the 1988 incident I mentioned:

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/19/u...es-deaths.html

I didn't go back through everything I said, this is just what I remember off the top of my head, if there is something specific that you feel was BS that isn't covered above, mention it.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by papillon

I didn't go back through everything I said, this is just what I remember off the top of my head, if there is something specific that you feel was BS that isn't covered above, mention it.

I believe I posted more than once that *I* wasn't doubting anything you wrote.

I was just questioning why one would just publicly embrace something without verifying it for themselves as well.

Sort of a "internet life lesson."

It was nothing personal. Just using you as an example of everyone, including me, who posts here.

[lamboguy]

i am learning a lot from this thread
.for what it's worth I quit buying horses 5 years ago because i can no longer win a race annd can't sell my horses for decent money. without involvement i am bored with the game the way it is. i cut back the amount of time i spend betting these thongs as well

[Andy Asaro]

In the L.A. Times a few days ago they had this guys selections and analysis. I blasted it out to my email list because of the comments below. Last night he sent me a free sheet for today at Belmont.


‘SUPER FEED’ TRAINERS: These are guys who’ve mastered the labs, meaning, they know how to add to their feed buckets without a sign of negative drug results, masking, etc. There’s a reason why runners from these barns always seem to re-break at the top of the lane, “finding more” as west coast announcer Trevor Denman would say. Front runners from these barns are always so dangerous. By the way, ever wonder why the trainers atop the leaderboard right now are rarely seen on the big days with security cameras and a security guard outside the stall prior to the big day races? Funny how that works.

[jay68802]

A while back I looked at Delta Downs and it came down to when Karl Broberg claimed a horse, on a average the horse improved it's speed figure from its last race by 7.8 Beyer points. To be in this group, the horse also had to race within 28 days of the claim.

It made me think that if the food or supplement worked so well for him, why do other trainers not use this "great" food or supplement? It must just be to expensive for the average trainer to afford.