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Old 02-06-2021, 01:22 AM   #1
foregoforever
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NYRA Excludes Computer Players from Pick Six Pool

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...pick-six-pool/

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With its new policies, NYRA is attempting to deal with what is becoming a growing problem for the sport in general. It is hard for tracks to turn down the business from CAW players because of the substantial contributions they make to handle. However, the computer players are generally so successful that their winning wagers cut substantially into payoffs, penalizing players who don't enjoy the same advantages. Over time, catering to CAW players runs the risk of emptying the pockets of a track's regular players.
Very interesting. So how does NYRA identify which wagers are coming from CAW players?
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Old 02-06-2021, 08:48 AM   #2
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I have mixed feelings about this.

NYRA continuing to put the good of the sport ahead of short term revenue is commendable.

On the flip side, these CAW guys are obviously very smart and have worked their asses off trying to get an edge. Assuming a few of them actually have one and are earning steady profits, the rug is being pulled out because they are too good. That's not exactly the same as casinos barring card counters (which was greed motivated and didn't impact the other players), but it sort of sucks the same if you are the guy getting barred after all that work.

Personally, I think all jackpot and carryover bets are a bad idea for the public in general. But people like them and others that used to have an edge before the CAW players came along would whine if they were totally eliminated. The latter group just wants the even superior competitors out of the game.
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Old 02-06-2021, 09:48 AM   #3
ronsmac
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Originally Posted by foregoforever View Post
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...pick-six-pool/



Very interesting. So how does NYRA identify which wagers are coming from CAW players?
That’s a start.
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Old 02-06-2021, 10:24 AM   #4
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If the industry wants to grow and get new Gamblers then it MUST lower take for everyone beginning with WPS and then Exactas while paying penny breakage on both.


They are the equivalent of a Poker tournament where the people with the most skill get an extra card while the other 99% play by regular rules. Who do you think comes out on top?


https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...pick-six-pool/

Excerpt:

This was the second step in a process that began Jan. 1 when NYRA eliminated the jackpot portion of the Pick Six wager. No matter how many winning tickets are sold on the bet, which costs 20 cents, the entire pool is now paid out every racing day.


With its new policies, NYRA is attempting to deal with what is becoming a growing problem for the sport in general. It is hard for tracks to turn down the business from CAW players because of the substantial contributions they make to handle. However, the computer players are generally so successful that their winning wagers cut substantially into payoffs, penalizing players who don't enjoy the same advantages. Over time, catering to CAW players runs the risk of emptying the pockets of a track's regular players.

The computer players have also been known to scoop up entire pools of wagers like jackpot Pick Sixes on the mandatory payout day. On Nov. 30, the Empire Six at Aqueduct paid $482,817. There was only one winning ticket on the bet and it was sold by the Elite Turf Club, which caters to large volume, computer players.

“What we have seen with the Empire Six is that the jackpot pool is built and supported largely by the everyday horseplayers,” NYRA spokesperson Pat McKenna said. “When it comes to mandatory payout days, there tends to be an unequal playing field.”

Last edited by Andy Asaro; 02-06-2021 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 02-06-2021, 10:37 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
I have mixed feelings about this.

NYRA continuing to put the good of the sport ahead of short term revenue is commendable.

On the flip side, these CAW guys are obviously very smart and have worked their asses off trying to get an edge. Assuming a few of them actually have one and are earning steady profits, the rug is being pulled out because they are too good. That's not exactly the same as casinos barring card counters (which was greed motivated and didn't impact the other players), but it sort of sucks the same if you are the guy getting barred after all that work.

Personally, I think all jackpot and carryover bets are a bad idea for the public in general. But people like them and others that used to have an edge before the CAW players came along would whine if they were totally eliminated. The latter group just wants the even superior competitors out of the game.
I never felt for card counters and don't feel for these guys.

One of the inherent risks of coming up with a winning system in gambling is you get discovered and shut out. This is not new. If that risk isn't worth it, nobody forces you to gamble. These guys have extensive computer skills. I am sure they can do something remunerative and more socially productive than sucking money out of the Pick Six pool.
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Old 02-06-2021, 11:02 AM   #6
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These guys have extensive computer skills. I am sure they can do something remunerative and more socially productive than sucking money out of the Pick Six pool.
Does using a database to try to suck money out of the win and exacta pool also count also socially unproductive? Let's face it, we'd all be better off if a LOT of people that gamble or trade very actively on markets used their gifts in other ways, but 9:00 - 5:00 isn't as much fun.

I had a good friend that was a card counter. He was at the very top of his class at MIT. I made a couple of trips to AC with him. I mimicked his bet sizing but played a more basic solid card strategy. They were profitable trips. But his best stories were about the times he took the bus there and a helicopter back. We made a few trips to Saratoga too. He was quite the horseplayer too. Unfortunately, he passed away very young in a card accident.
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Old 02-06-2021, 12:00 PM   #7
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It isn't just the computer access, it is the price cut they are playing with that gives them a deadly combination.
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Old 02-06-2021, 01:02 PM   #8
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I am not sure they are really cut off. Don't you think it is possible that they may have more than one way to get into the pool. Not even sure it really helps the everyday player. On days you out handicap them isn't it good to have their money in the pools ? NYRA seems to be doing the right thing, but if they concentrated on stopping huge odds changes after the race has begun that would probably help the average bettor more in the long run.
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Old 02-06-2021, 01:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Asaro View Post
If the industry wants to grow and get new Gamblers then it MUST lower take for everyone beginning with WPS and then Exactas while paying penny breakage on both........

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.co...pick-six-pool/

Excerpt:

This was the second step in a process that began Jan. 1 when NYRA eliminated the jackpot portion of the Pick Six wager. No matter how many winning tickets are sold on the bet, which costs 20 cents, the entire pool is now paid out every racing day.


With its new policies, NYRA is attempting to deal with what is becoming a growing problem for the sport in general. It is hard for tracks to turn down the business from CAW players because of the substantial contributions they make to handle. However, the computer players are generally so successful that their winning wagers cut substantially into payoffs, penalizing players who don't enjoy the same advantages. Over time, catering to CAW players runs the risk of emptying the pockets of a track's regular players.

The computer players have also been known to scoop up entire pools of wagers like jackpot Pick Sixes on the mandatory payout day. On Nov. 30, the Empire Six at Aqueduct paid $482,817. There was only one winning ticket on the bet and it was sold by the Elite Turf Club, which caters to large volume, computer players.

“What we have seen with the Empire Six is that the jackpot pool is built and supported largely by the everyday horseplayers,” NYRA spokesperson Pat McKenna said. “When it comes to mandatory payout days, there tends to be an unequal playing field.”

Shocking news that jackpot bets are built by everyday players only to be scooped up by the more sophisticated well-financed players. This was the exact argument made against jackpot bets when they were first introduced. Ironically they were introduced for the small player only to turn out as a benefit for a big player.
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Old 02-06-2021, 01:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Does using a database to try to suck money out of the win and exacta pool also count also socially unproductive? Let's face it, we'd all be better off if a LOT of people that gamble or trade very actively on markets used their gifts in other ways, but 9:00 - 5:00 isn't as much fun.

I had a good friend that was a card counter. He was at the very top of his class at MIT. I made a couple of trips to AC with him. I mimicked his bet sizing but played a more basic solid card strategy. They were profitable trips. But his best stories were about the times he took the bus there and a helicopter back. We made a few trips to Saratoga too. He was quite the horseplayer too. Unfortunately, he passed away very young in a card accident.
Most of the top card counters had extensive STEM educations. They will do just fine if the casinos shut them down
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Old 02-06-2021, 01:19 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by aaron View Post
I am not sure they are really cut off. Don't you think it is possible that they may have more than one way to get into the pool. Not even sure it really helps the everyday player. On days you out handicap them isn't it good to have their money in the pools ? NYRA seems to be doing the right thing, but if they concentrated on stopping huge odds changes after the race has begun that would probably help the average bettor more in the long run.
This is a guess, but I suspect it is pretty easy to detect them just based on betting patterns.
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Old 02-06-2021, 01:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Does using a database to try to suck money out of the win and exacta pool also count also socially unproductive? Let's face it, we'd all be better off if a LOT of people that gamble or trade very actively on markets used their gifts in other ways, but 9:00 - 5:00 isn't as much fun.

I had a good friend that was a card counter. He was at the very top of his class at MIT. I made a couple of trips to AC with him. I mimicked his bet sizing but played a more basic solid card strategy. They were profitable trips. But his best stories were about the times he took the bus there and a helicopter back. We made a few trips to Saratoga too. He was quite the horseplayer too. Unfortunately, he passed away very young in a card accident.
Re: First sentence highlighted in blue --

I have a close friend. About once a week over the past 20 years she's figured out a way to tell me - sometimes in a subtle way - other times in a not so subtle way - I should forget about horseracing - move to Silicon Valley - and get a six figure job writing code. Can't say she doesn't have a point. But I'm happy doing what I' doing. So I keep at it.

Re: Second sentence highlighted in blue --

Sorry to hear about your friend.

I'm assuming you meant car accident. Although I did once have a gun pointed at me after tearing my cards in half during a game where I didn't think things were on the up and up.

I've been in three serious car wrecks. None of them my fault. Last one I was rear-ended by an F150 at highway speed after being stopped by Highway Patrol so tow trucks could clear an existing wreck a few hundred yards further down the road. The front end of the F150 that hit me struck the rear corner of my pickup in a way that lifted the back end of my vehicle off the ground at an angle. My vehicle was sent flying - rotating in midair - landed on the driver's side - bounced, rolled, spun around - and eventually came to a stop completely upside down with the front end facing in the opposite direction.

I was lucky and walked away with only minor injuries.

Re: The original thread topic --

Imo --

Sure, a track can shut off access to specific outlets that offer CRW (Computer Robotic Wagering.)

But tracks can't really do much when it comes to shutting off the players themselves - especially for a multi-race exotic like a pick6.

What's to stop a whale from making an arrangement with a beard for that one wager type?

From a logistics standpoint - the only constraint is the whale and the beard can't use CRW.

What's to stop the whale team from watching the horses for leg one of a pick6 come out onto the track and start going through pre-race warmups?

And from there sending ticket structure based on what is known at the time to the beard a few minutes before post time?

From there the beard would be tasked with submitting tickets correctly before the race goes off.

I'm 100% sure this has happened in the past at tracks who were telling reporters "We don't allow them into our pools."



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Old 02-06-2021, 02:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
Unfortunately, he passed away very young in a card accident.
Don't want to joke too much about something sad, so going to assume this was car accident and not like an overly sharp 7 of clubs.
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Old 02-06-2021, 02:32 PM   #14
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What is the definition of a CAW?

Is there one?

I mean, clearly it is not "uses a computer."

As for "automated," I don't know of any playing corp that let's the computer do it all. At the end, an "agent" queues the bets and fires it.
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Old 02-06-2021, 02:36 PM   #15
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Just for P6 pools?
Woo F-ing Hoo.
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