my years counting cards

[davew]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Can’t think of a more boring way to make money. I’d rather slit my wrists.

how much can you make doing that? I will add $5 to the pool.



For the card counters, did you split hard 20's when the count was good?

[BettinBilly]

Originally Posted by tbwinner

Counting in LV will quickly get you 86'd if you're good at it.
.

I have a remote business acquaintance that is a superior card counter. He was diagnosed with Aspergers, but as someone that has known him for decades in business, I am convinced that this was a an off-target diagnosis. He's more of a high functioning Autistic Savant.

He has been banned from many casinos in Vegas, and is now playing Laughlin. Or at least he was. The last time I talked to him, the Laughlin casinos had not banned him yet. I think these days he's more careful about his play, trying to avoid being banned from playing everywhere.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Doing my taxes last week, I ran across a folder full of signers, many from the same period the OP mentioned - late 1980s to mid 1990s. Cashing at tracks across Illinois, Kentucky and the Birmingham "Turf" Club, as well as Charles Town, Laurel and the Maryland OTBs when I was on business up in DC.

I cleared several thousand in "profits" most years too, but after subtracting out travel expenses, it was pretty much a wash. I bought a new car in 1990 for $10K, and it last seven years and 120,000 miles before I had to get a new one, and my previous new vehicle last five years.

Half Smoke, sounds like you were putting about 20K miles on your car every year for your commutes. Don't forget to subtract that from your totals. Gas, insurance and depreciation were less back then, but it still adds up.

But like yourself, it was something I really enjoyed doing, and was a cheap hobby. The driving and visiting different venues was a lot of fun. Racing has become less about travel now with ADWs, but has become much more difficult to beat.

As for blackjack, I've never been much of a fan. It was, and maybe still is, the only action besides racing and sports that casinos offer that can be beaten. But I think it requires even more discipline to turn a profit with those fractional advantages, so it's not within my skill set.

In the late 1980s I played some blackjack a few times during my first few trips to Vegas. I was sitting at a $5 min table for about 10 minutes once, and two gents who had been seated before me got up and left. The pit boss came over and discretely asked the dealer how they had done. She replied something like, "the guy with the red hat won $125 and the guy in the green shirt won $220." The pit boss nodded, strolled over to a central station on the floor, and appeared to report his findings to some coworkers.

I don't think I've played blackjack since.

[Dave Schwartz]

In the late 1980s I played some blackjack a few times during my first few trips to Vegas. I was sitting at a $5 min table for about 10 minutes once, and two gents who had been seated before me got up and left. The pit boss came over and discretely asked the dealer how they had done. She replied something like, "the guy with the red hat won $125 and the guy in the green shirt won $220." The pit boss nodded, strolled over to a central station on the floor, and appeared to report his findings to some coworkers.

I don't think I've played blackjack since.

Every pit "in the old days" maintained what was known as The Walk Sheet. It was, quite literally, what it sounded like. They tracked how much each player bought in for (or walked up with) when he reached the pit.

Since their names were rarely known, the players were designated a moniker based upon appearance.

If someone was known - either via history or by having produced a player card - a name was retroactively attached.

The Goal, believe it or not, was simply to be able to answer 2 simple questions when asked by a higher up:

1. "Are we ahead or behind for the day (on this shift)?"
2. "What's the drop for the shift?"

The purpose of the Walk Sheet was to facilitate the running tally and to track individual players. Each floorman was responsible for a handful of games. In the crap pit it was normally 2 (unless it was a small joint). In the 21 pit, it was generally 4.

If you were asked, "How much did the bald guy with the toupe walk with?" all hell might break loose if you didn't have an answer. Of course, experienced floormen knew there was an unspoken rule that said, "If you don't know, just make it up," but be sure to go correct the walk sheet to support your lie.

Periodically through the day, someone would run from pit-to-pit and gather up the totals to report to the bosses.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Every pit "in the old days" maintained what was known as The Walk Sheet. It was, quite literally, what it sounded like. They tracked how much each player bought in for (or walked up with) when he reached the pit.

Since their names were rarely known, the players were designated a moniker based upon appearance.

If someone was known - either via history or by having produced a player card - a name was retroactively attached.

The Goal, believe it or not, was simply to be able to answer 2 simple questions when asked by a higher up:

1. "Are we ahead or behind for the day (on this shift)?"
2. "What's the drop for the shift?"

The purpose of the Walk Sheet was to facilitate the running tally and to track individual players. Each floorman was responsible for a handful of games. In the crap pit it was normally 2 (unless it was a small joint). In the 21 pit, it was generally 4.

If you were asked, "How much did the bald guy with the toupe walk with?" all hell might break loose if you didn't have an answer. Of course, experienced floormen knew there was an unspoken rule that said, "If you don't know, just make it up," but be sure to go correct the walk sheet to support your lie.

Periodically through the day, someone would run from pit-to-pit and gather up the totals to report to the bosses.

if a player had a lot of chips, the dealer used to ask the player to color up his chips. then when the player went to the cage to cash out, the cashier would ask the player where he got the chips, then they called us down at the pit to confirm. this was done mainly to make sure the guys weren't trying to cash in counterfeit chips. there were people that would counterfeit the larger denominations, play at a table, and then add a few chips into his stack.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

if a player had a lot of chips, the dealer used to ask the player to color up his chips. then when the player went to the cage to cash out, the cashier would ask the player where he got the chips, then they called us down at the pit to confirm. this was done mainly to make sure the guys weren't trying to cash in counterfeit chips. there were people that would counterfeit the larger denominations, play at a table, and then add a few chips into his stack.

I recall those days but that ship pretty much sailed in the late '70s/ early '80s, when the larger denominations had an implant that was scanned automatically at the cage.

I was not high-tech then but think it was magnetic because it was too early for infrared detection.

Could be wrong. Perhaps you can exapnd on it?

[classhandicapper]

I had a friend that counted cards. He went to AC often around the same time period. He was brilliant guy. I think he was top 4 in his class at MIT. He would crack me up. He'd go there by bus and come back by helicopter. I made one trip with him. I memorized the basic strategy and tried to use the same counting strategy suggested earlier. In the end I mostly used the basic strategy and watched his betting patterns to verify my own count. We both won a few dollars. We did some trips to Saratoga together also. Unfortunately he passed away in a car accident soon after. It was a terrible loss in a lot of ways.

[vegasone]

Any type of low edge gambling as you all know is subject to long streaks of good and bad “luck””. Anyone winning every time can’t be taken seriously. I asked a long time professional player what his longest losing streak was and he said 6 months.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by vegasone

Any type of low edge gambling as you all know is subject to long streaks of good and bad “luck””. Anyone winning every time can’t be taken seriously. I asked a long time professional player what his longest losing streak was and he said 6 months.

No way.
He's either not a real professional or he plays like once a week.

While you're correct about small advantages, the hit rate is so clustered around 43-50% that all of the percentages come together about every 3,000 hands.

Julian Braun said that decades ago and, in my own play (also decades ago) I found that to be accurate.

The last year that I was active (1977), played 116 days and lost 13 of those plays.

The days were inconsistent as I usually played to a target win. Sometimes I could be done in a couple of hours and other times a "day" could last 30-35 hours; until I reached my goal, lost the session, or simply ran out of energy.

BTW, I once did a multi-day test where I counted all the money wagered on a handheld grocery store clicker. At the end of it all I estimated that my overall advantage playing a 1-3 spread was 0.7%.

In 18 months I won $600,000 with that tiny advantage.

[delfman]

Originally Posted by Bustin Stones

My philosophy is to never play a game of chance where the house sets the odds. Even if you beat the odds, the payoff isn't worth your time.

When playing poker stick with tournament poker.
Poker teams cannot fleece you.
You cannot be bullied out of a hand as long as you bet whatever you have left.

Not so much being bullied out of a hand. Poker tournament seating is random. Along with constant table moves in large number events.
Players in cahoots at the same cash game table will signal their partner or partners when they have the nuts, to jack up the pots with raises and re-raises. Potentially costing you so much more $ calling with 2nd best.


this is good advice.
one must always be wary when playing poker with unknown players.
You have every right to see someones hole cards that were folded on the river, if you lose the hand. Just make sure you say something before the dealer adds them to the muck. There are poker cheats everywhere. Poker teams are what makes playing online poker nearly unplayable.

[vegasone]

[QUOTE=Dave Schwartz;2800060]No way.
He's either not a real professional or he plays like once a week.

He is and was a pro. All he does for a living.
Just going by what he said, but ask any high end poker player or sports bettor about losing losing streaks.
Ask any video poker player about those streaks. No matter how good you are it still happens.

[Dave Schwartz]

Respectfully, I just cannot see this as a realistic losing streak for an honest-to-God winning player.


100 hands an hour.
6-10 hours per day.
Call it 8 hours = 800 hands per day.

Do that 5 days a week is 4,000 hands a week. (Normal for me back then was about 6k hands per week.)

Do that x 26 weeks = 100,000 hands.

All I can tell you is that I've never known a single professional who experienced anything resembling a downswing of 100,000 hands.

Just don't think it is mathematically possible unless the player is always trying to make $10k out of $500 every time he plays. (Not the nature of most card counters.)

It's like saying that a single player might beat the crap table for 100,000 hands.

At 8 pass line decisions an hour that would be like a player staying ahead for over 12,500 hours.

Even if it's 16 decisions an hour, it's still over 6,000 hours of the house losing.

Just hard to see this as a possibility.

But we can certainly agree to disagree.

[davew]

the reason I brought back this thread was I have watched a few videos from this guy .... recent and interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbOhuUBAv_0