UK Payoffs when betting thru US ADW???

[moneyandland]

Can someone explain to me how the place payoffs are calculated for Ascot?

I just be Telescope to place thru DRFbets and after receiving $2.20 I'll never bet another cent into those pools.

Race 3
# Horse Jockey Win Place
10 TELESCOPE (IRE) $5.00 $2.20
6 HILLSTAR $4.60
8 PETHER'S MOON (IRE) $5.60

Place Pool Total $169,058
Amount on
6 - $19,715
8 - $16,404
10 - $39,837

So there was only $3900 to pay out for winners on the place money on #10, but $25,600 and $29,527 for the 6 and 8????


A 25% takeout under the original standard calculations for a place pool would still have paid $3.40, net pool pricing or what ever they use is ridiculous

[OTM Al]

So you would be mad if you got $2.20 to show on a 3/2 winner? Sounds about right to me. He paid the exact same place price in England BTW.

[moneyandland]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

So you would be mad if you got $2.20 to show on a 3/2 winner? Sounds about right to me. He paid the exact same place price in England BTW.

IF the other horses were paid 5x the same in the pools yes, and you avatar matches your personality you ornery old goat

It's not about paying 2.20 its about paying 2.20 and having the others pay so much more, and you won't find too many 3/2's paying 2.20 to show anywhere in an 10 horse field on any continent

The point being is that from the payouts it appears that 3900 was paid to tickets on the 10 and 25,000 to tickets on the 6 an 8 seems a bit unfair to me

also the fact that someone will always defend what appears to be a wrong and tell you that it's your problem you got the short end of the stick is why this industry is dead

[davew]

I agree moneyandland, I checked one of my offshore ADWs for pool data

https://secure.link2bet.com/odds_get...014-06-21&sr=0


and all the place ( top 3 in this race) results are off - the only thing I can figure is someone dumped $100K on the 10 and does not show in the pools - also some on the 6 and 8 as they are low as well

[OTM Al]

At 25% I get $2.40, not $3.40. I know the take is high on these but not sure it is that high. I'd also ask how sure you are of your figures. Sorry, but given the race they still look about right to me and are exactly the same payoffs from the British tote

http://www.attheraces.com/card.aspx?...e=&nav=results

The fact that someone defends what appears to be wrong to you may well mean you were the one that was wrong in the first place. I won't even address the rest of your statement as it is ridiculous.

[Some_One]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

So you would be mad if you got $2.20 to show on a 3/2 winner? Sounds about right to me. He paid the exact same place price in England BTW.

It's the same pool

[Some_One]

CALCULATION OF DIVIDENDS

The total of the funds invested plus any funds brought forward form the gross pool. If the gross pool is guaranteed to a particular amount, then this
amount forms the gross pool unless the total of the funds invested plus any funds brought forward is greater than the guarantee.

The net pool is divided by the number of places payable on the race as defined above, i.e. 2, 3 or 4, in equal proportion. The part of the net pool
allocated to each place is then divided by the total stakes on that placed horse to obtain a calculated dividend for each place. The calculated
dividend is rounded down to the next 10 pence to obtain the payable dividend declared to a £1 stake, with the following exceptions:
(i) If the calculated dividend is greater than 70p and less than £1.10, the payable dividend will be £1.10.
(ii) If the calculated dividend is 70p or below, the payable dividend will be £1.02.
(iii) Notwithstanding (i) and (ii) above, in the case of a dead heat the minimum payable dividend will be 50p. (See rule on Dead Heats below.)

Holders of winning tickets are then paid in proportion to their stakes.

In the event of (ii) above, i.e. if the calculated dividend falls below 70p, money will be taken from the net pool on the remaining placed horses in
equal shares to ensure that the minimum calculated dividend on any placed horse is not less than 70p.

Example 3
Suppose we have a toteplace pool where the net fund available for distribution after the deduction has been removed is £12,000, and suppose
there are 3 places payable.

Then the net pool initially allocated to each placed horse = (£12,000 / 3) = £4,000.

Suppose the total amounts invested on the 3 placed horses are:
1st placed horse: £1,000
2nd placed horse: £500
3rd placed horse: £8,000

Therefore the calculated dividends on the 3 placed horses would be:
1st placed horse: £4.00
2nd placed horse: £8.00
3rd placed horse: £0.50

The calculated dividend for the 3rd placed horse is less than 70p. Therefore money will be taken from the net pool on the remaining placed horses
in equal shares to ensure that the minimum calculated dividend on any placed horse is not less than 70p.

The net pool which must be allocated to the 3rd placed horse to increase the calculated dividend to 70p is (£8,000 x 0.70) = £5,600. This means
an additional (£5,600 - £4,000) = £1,600 will be taken from the net pool on the other 2 placed horses in equal shares, i.e. £800 from each of those
other 2 placed horses. So the revised net pool allocated to each placed horse is now as follows:
1st placed horse: £4,000 - £800 = £3,200
2nd placed horse: £4,000 - £800 = £3,200
3rd placed horse: £4,000 + £1,600 = £5,600
Example 4
Suppose once again we have a toteplace pool where the net fund available for distribution after the deduction has been removed is £12,000, and
there are 3 places payable.

Then the net pool initially allocated to each placed horse = (£12,000 / 3) = £4,000.

Suppose the total amounts invested on the 3 placed horses are:
1st placed horse: £5,000
2nd placed horse: £100
3rd placed horse: £8,000

(Note: The total amount of winning units can be greater than the net pool due to the deduction.)

The calculated dividends on the 3 placed horses would be:
1st placed horse: £0.80
2nd placed horse: £40.00
3rd placed horse: £0.50

The calculated dividend for the 3rd placed horse is less than 70p. Therefore money will be taken from the net pool on the remaining placed horses
in equal shares to ensure that the minimum calculated dividend on any placed horse is not less than 70p.

The net pool which must be allocated to the 3rd placed horse to increase the calculated dividend to 70p is (£8,000 x 0.70) = £5,600. This means
an additional (£5,600 - £4,000) = £1,600 will be taken from the net pool on the other 2 placed horses in equal shares, i.e. £800 from each of those
other 2 placed horses. So the revised net pool allocated to each placed horse is now as follows:
1st placed horse: £4,000 - £800 = £3,200
2nd placed horse: £4,000 - £800 = £3,200
3rd placed horse: £4,000 + £1,600 = £5,600

The calculated dividend on each runner is now:
1st placed horse: £3,200 / £5,000 = £0.64
2nd placed horse: £3,200 / £100 = £32.00
3rd placed horse: £5,600 / £8,000 = £0.70

The calculated dividend for the 1st placed horse has now fallen below 70p. Therefore further money must be taken from the net pool on the other
remaining placed horse, i.e. the 2nd placed horse, to ensure that the minimum calculated dividend on any placed horse is not less than 70p.

The net pool which must be allocated to the 1st placed horse to increase the calculated dividend to 70p is (£5,000 x 0.70) = £3,500. This means an
additional (£3,500 - £3,200) = £300 will be taken from the net pool on the 2nd placed horse. So the revised net pool allocated to each placed horse
is now as follows:
1st placed horse: £3,200 + £300 = £3,500
2nd placed horse: £3,200 - £300 = £2,900
3rd placed horse: £5,600

The calculated dividend on each placed horse is now:
1st placed horse: £3,500 / £5,000 = £0.70
2nd placed horse: £2,900 / £100 = £29.00
3rd placed horse: £5,600 / £8,000 = £0.70

So the declared dividends will be:
1st placed horse: £1.02
2nd placed horse: £29.00
3rd placed horse: £1.02


If a placed horse is part-backed, i.e. there is less than £1 of tickets in the pool on a placed horse, then the net pool assigned to that placed horse is
the calculated dividend. In accordance with the rules above, this is then rounded down to the next 10 pence to obtain the payable dividend to a £1
stake. The balance of the net pool assigned to that placed horse which has not been won will be divided in equal proportion between the remaining
placed horses which have been fully backed.
Example 5
Suppose we have a toteplace pool where the net funds available for distribution after the deduction has been removed is £3,000, and there are 3
places payable.

Then the net pool initially allocated to each placed horse = (£3,000 / 3) = £1,000.

Suppose the total amounts invested on the 3 placed horses are: 1st placed horse: £500.00
2nd placed horse: £100.00
3rd placed horse: £0.40

The 3rd placed horse is part backed, so only £400 of the £1,000 allocated to that horse will be paid out on that horse. The balance of £600 will be
divided in equal proportion between the other horses which have been fully backed, so an additional £300 will be allocated to each of the 1st and
2nd placed horses.

So the revised net pool allocated to each placed horse is now as follows:
1st placed horse: £1,000 + £300 = £1,300
2nd placed horse: £1,000 + £300 = £1,300
3rd placed horse: £1,000 - £600 = £400

The calculated dividend on each runner is now:
1st placed horse: £1,300 / £500.00 = £2.60
2nd placed horse: £1,300 / £100.00 = £13.00
3rd placed horse: £400 / £0.40 = £1,000.00


If a placed horse is not backed, the portion of the net pool assigned to that placed horse will be divided in equal proportion between the remaining
placed horses which have been fully backed.

If none of the placed horses are fully backed, the balance of the gross pool assigned to each placed horse which has not been won will be carried
forward to another race as decided by totepool. The deduction from any pool is only taken at the time the funds are won, so this is added back to
the net rollover to be included within a subsequent pool.

If none of the placed horses are backed, the entire gross pool will be carried forward to another race as decided by totepool.

Note that any guarantee is disregarded for the purposes of carry-forwards

[OTM Al]

Originally Posted by Some_One

It's the same pool

Finally we are commingling pools with the UK? I'd missed that one as I thought this was still one of those Oregon wagering pools like for Dubai. Knew that it was happening for France but think it is great these are the "home" pools now. Very good to know.

[moneyandland]

So they use winners money to pay out other winners is what I gather??? using different calculations based upon how much is bet on a horse... so this way of calculations essentially adds to the takeout on the favorite subsidizing the other bet horses payoffs.

Not for me, won't be betting anymore of that, hard enough to win now I get penalized for backing the right horse?

[Some_One]

This is how it's done in most other countries, the place pools are split, that's why they can display the place payoffs on the boards as the payoff it not really dependent on other horses.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by OTM Al

Finally we are commingling pools with the UK? I'd missed that one as I thought this was still one of those Oregon wagering pools like for Dubai. Knew that it was happening for France but think it is great these are the "home" pools now. Very good to know.

It's been this way for some time.
Problem is, the UK "Tote" handle is miniscule by US standards.

Takeout (not sure what it is) has to be big - the favored horses in most races generally go off at much lower odds than the SP (starting price) returned by bookmakers over there. Value can be had on longshots, though.
If you happen to like a horse at a price, sometimes you get a boost.

Generally, though, UK pari-mutuel offers little value to the bettor.

[Some_One]

Win pool takeout is 16.5%. Place pool is 18%. Place Quinella (called the Swinger and not available in NA I believe) is 30%. Exacta is 25%. Trifeca is 25%.

[ronsmac]

Don't forget our friend breakage. It really affects those place aka show prices . Especially the 2.20 kind. Does the tote pay 2.30 on those prices? or does it go straight from 2.40 to 2.20?

[davew]

I plugged numbers in Some_One's formula

total pool 169058
pool after 18% takeout 138627

available to each winner 46209

10 had 39837 so get 1.15/1 breakage to 2.2/2
6 had 18715 so get 2.34/1 breakage to 4.6/2
8 had 16404 so get 2.81/1 breakage to 5.6/2


formula and takeout checks out

I am really going to have to reconsider show pools with this data and formula
as the 10 had less than 24% of the total pool

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by ronsmac

Don't forget our friend breakage. It really affects those place aka show prices . Especially the 2.20 kind. Does the tote pay 2.30 on those prices? or does it go straight from 2.40 to 2.20?

Not sure, but I do know that their lowest payoff is 2.04