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Old 04-09-2018, 12:41 PM   #16
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I actually had a horse I bet Saturday that broke to a good lead and wnt up two points in the far turn!

I fully expected the second horse to gobble him up, but, to my surprise, he opened up and won off!

I blew my one golden shot on a lousy 4-1 shot.
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Old 04-09-2018, 01:03 PM   #17
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Here is a thing to consider. Not all facilities are created equal. When you watch the video feed on the monitors there is a delay between the satellite linkup and the video you are watching. Some places like the Red Mile in Lexington paid a premium to get real-time video vs lagged video at other simulcast facilities.

This gave bettors a huge advantage as they could see the breaks and bet accordingly or lineups in harness racing. They also had a teller cancel feature so in essence there was approximately 15s they had to cancel bets whereas you had zero seconds if your facility had no teller cancel feature. I know my facility used to have it and it was eliminated.

I never thought to test the actual off time of a race to off-track video feeds but you would need to sync measurement to 1/100ths of a second and see how much lag there was. Now sometimes you get shutout as you see horses coming off the turn on your video but in reality the gates have opened.
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Old 04-09-2018, 01:20 PM   #18
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Here is a thing to consider. Not all facilities are created equal. When you watch the video feed on the monitors there is a delay between the satellite linkup and the video you are watching. Some places like the Red Mile in Lexington paid a premium to get real-time video vs lagged video at other simulcast facilities.

This gave bettors a huge advantage as they could see the breaks and bet accordingly or lineups in harness racing. They also had a teller cancel feature so in essence there was approximately 15s they had to cancel bets whereas you had zero seconds if your facility had no teller cancel feature. I know my facility used to have it and it was eliminated.

I never thought to test the actual off time of a race to off-track video feeds but you would need to sync measurement to 1/100ths of a second and see how much lag there was. Now sometimes you get shutout as you see horses coming off the turn on your video but in reality the gates have opened.
this is old news already, everyone knows after the bell takes place at The Red Mile, Dover, and Harrington. but as far as i know they are only getting down after the bell for harness races. we need to know where to go for thoroughbreds and i think i know the place.

but when you think about it, if the bell stays open for harness, why wouldn't it for thoroughbreds somewhere?
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Old 04-09-2018, 01:37 PM   #19
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this is old news already, everyone knows after the bell takes place at The Red Mile, Dover, and Harrington. but as far as i know they are only getting down after the bell for harness races. we need to know where to go for thoroughbreds and i think i know the place.

but when you think about it, if the bell stays open for harness, why wouldn't it for thoroughbreds somewhere?
Lexington stopped paying for the real time feed but yes I wasn't aware everybody knew this. I'm sure it has to happen for t-breds as well. Jeff P posted in another thread about video lag and the potential exploitation in another thread.

If your pumping millions per year through in handle wouldn't it be a business expense to pay for a realtime video feed so you can bet the horse that broke on top or cancel bet that missed the break before betting is shutoff?
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Old 04-09-2018, 01:42 PM   #20
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Lexington stopped paying for the real time feed but yes I wasn't aware everybody knew this. I'm sure it has to happen for t-breds as well. Jeff P posted in another thread about video lag and the potential exploitation in another thread.

If your pumping millions per year through in handle wouldn't it be a business expense to pay for a realtime video feed so you can bet the horse that broke on top or cancel bet that missed the break before betting is shutoff?
there was a deal at Yonkers a few years ago where a 1/9 shot broke right at the start and people at The Red Mile destroyed the exacta. in Maryland harness there is plenty of time to call horses at the break as well.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:54 AM   #21
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Been a weekend clerk for nearly 30 years in California and I have never worked at a facility where we had extra time to cancel or make a bet after the break. Got caught with a $200 WP ticket once that luckily ran 2nd and only cost me $30. I have also seen tons of late money action recently and my educated guess is that it is not happening at the mutuel clerk level or at a window on track or OTB. Think about how many devices and hubs are connected to the pool. Somewhere in there somebody has figured out how to exploit it. If you think about how many data hacks we have seen over the years, many at financial institutions that you can be sure had pretty solid security set-ups, and then you think about how well the racing industry handles things and to me it is an easy conclusion to come to.
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Old 04-10-2018, 12:44 PM   #22
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Been a weekend clerk for nearly 30 years in California and I have never worked at a facility where we had extra time to cancel or make a bet after the break. Got caught with a $200 WP ticket once that luckily ran 2nd and only cost me $30. I have also seen tons of late money action recently and my educated guess is that it is not happening at the mutuel clerk level or at a window on track or OTB. Think about how many devices and hubs are connected to the pool. Somewhere in there somebody has figured out how to exploit it. If you think about how many data hacks we have seen over the years, many at financial institutions that you can be sure had pretty solid security set-ups, and then you think about how well the racing industry handles things and to me it is an easy conclusion to come to.
I've got some friends (husband & wife) who are long-time mutuel clerks in S. Florida. Apparently (in the old days), too many clerks were getting stuck with tickets from guys who would stand at the window and not touch their tickets until the gate opened, at which time a friend watching a monitor would pass a signal. Then the guy with the ticket would say, "That's the wrong horse. I wanted the ??," and not pay for the ticket.

They say that is why the cancel process was put in place. Not sure if it is still there or not.

They also said that word travels fast along the line and very quickly the clerks shut the guy out to discourage him. They'd do stuff like punch in his ticket and immediately cancel it, saying, "Oh, sorry. Wrong horse. Oh, dang. Now the race is gone."

PS: They said that they've worked on-call at a the dog tracks as well and the same guys pull this stuff over and over.

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 04-10-2018 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 04-10-2018, 01:02 PM   #23
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Been a weekend clerk for nearly 30 years in California and I have never worked at a facility where we had extra time to cancel or make a bet after the break. Got caught with a $200 WP ticket once that luckily ran 2nd and only cost me $30. I have also seen tons of late money action recently and my educated guess is that it is not happening at the mutuel clerk level or at a window on track or OTB. Think about how many devices and hubs are connected to the pool. Somewhere in there somebody has figured out how to exploit it. If you think about how many data hacks we have seen over the years, many at financial institutions that you can be sure had pretty solid security set-ups, and then you think about how well the racing industry handles things and to me it is an easy conclusion to come to.
I appreciate your input here on this issue. Let me take you back to the 70's at Hollywood Park where I was betting in the Club House 2nd floor. There was a long row of empty ticket sellers and off in the corner to my right was a $10 window with the clerk and a customer standing motionless in front of the window. Nobody else was there so I ambled over to make a bet. I bet something and stepped back. The original customer moved back to the window and I heard him say something like "When I give the word, keep hitting the 10 to win".

As I recall, it was a sprint race with Laffit Pincay on the 10. The gate opened and the 10 broke on top. Harry Henson was making the call in his usual gravelly voice. The bettor told the clerk to "hit it" and the $10 win tickets started pumping out. Off to my left I could hear the clank of machines being locked coming my way. By the time this terminal was locked, there was a large stack of $10 win tickets on the 10. And yes, the 10 horse won.

I guess my point is that this sort of thing has been going on for a long time. I don't think there are mechanical locking terminals anymore but somewhere in the system, somebody may be exploiting the newest technology. Unless the whole betting process, end to end, becomes transparent to us, bettors are naturally going to be suspicious. I know I am.
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Old 04-10-2018, 02:16 PM   #24
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No REAL PROOF ...

Well done CJ, changing the phony title.
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Old 04-10-2018, 02:32 PM   #25
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If past posting is going on, wouldn't it be ridiculously easy to pinpoint where it is coming from? Horse breaks on top by 2, huge crush on the odds, where did the money come from? Horse breaks last, goes fro 6/5 to 2-1, were there any late cancels? where from........next suspicious race... Seems to me like if anyone with power to do anything cared they could get to the bottom of this pretty quickly and pretty easily. I honestly do not think they care, because racing feels their bottom line is all that matters and the betting public expects to lose anyhow, so what is the difference?

Next question is are we as horseplayers willing to accept the windows being shut down prior to off to verify the integrity of the pools even though it means that we may get stuck with a horse who breaks through the gate or act up at the gate or in harness racing break before the start (I get stuck with all of those anyhow thanks to the delay). To me the answer is absolutely yes, but others?

To me the #1 change we need to demand as bettors is that windows be closed prior to off (if nothing else but to free us from the concern that past posting can or is going on). But given the cost, would horseplayers collectively push for this. Maybe some think the game is honest and like the convenience of betting at the last few seconds, maybe some think the ability to cancel very late is a greater good. I just don't know what can be done (other than walking away from the game), if we all (or at least most of us) cannot agree on what needs to be done.
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Old 04-10-2018, 03:54 PM   #26
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  • win contender
  • and he projects to be the speed-of-speeds or better yet loose
  • and one of the top other public choices is a toss
This is one of the simplest and heaviest-bet betting models in our pools.

  • as close to final odds as possible (last seconds)
This is one of the most popular bet-timing models used in our pools.


Think about how this heavy late money from these models will relate to horses that break well and run well, and conversely how it will relate to public choices who don't fire today.

Does that mean that there is no betting after the bell?

No it doesn't. There may well be some betting after the bell. If it does occur at all, it is within the pattern (invisible), not the driving force of the pattern. Greedy, incompetent, obvious cheaters become the scandals and scapegoats.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:03 PM   #27
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I have a problem, I would love to try it but can't. My ADW shows the track I live closest to, but I am not allowed to wager on it through the ADW. I want to take my laptop to the track, sit where I can watch the races, and most importantly the start, and see if I can wager, or cancel a wager after I see the start of the race live. The theory being that because the ADW is showing a delayed broadcast of the race, I should be able to bet or cancel a bet through them, right after the start of the race.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:41 PM   #28
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Won't work.

On AmWager for instance, the race closes for betting before the race starts on the video...on AmWager, it's a couple of seconds delay between the close of the betting and the start of the race on video.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:47 PM   #29
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In the modern day, there is no way to past-post (meaning making a bet after the pools have been closed) unless there has been a technical failure of some sort. The only way for a bet to be placed after the race starts (but before the pool closes) is if the person in charge of locking the pools delays doing so or outright just forgets to. In normal operations, those failures are caught before the race goes official, and in most cases the guest site is thrown out, or the entire race is refunded.

Additionally, the TRPB now has a tote security monitoring system that gets an audit feed from everyone, and any widespread instance of this would have been caught a long time ago.

The close-cancel delay (which Dave described) has been eliminated from nearly everywhere. Seem to recall at the last 2020 Meeting someone mentioning there was only one outlet left that still had it, but don't remember who. Keep in mind, that delay wouldn't allow you to wager, just to cancel a wager already placed. When I was a teller, it had to be the last ticket you punched.

Closing the pools early won't change the late money swings people are discussing here. A large portion of the pool is still going to come at the last flash, and the odds are still going to move the same way. The only thing that would change is you would be able to see the final odds before the gate opened (but still not before you made your bet).

I don't know how to do it from a operational standpoint, but to fix the problem being discussed here, you would have to shut the computer players out of the game completely, or shut them out at 1-2 MTP and leave the wagering open for everyone else. Of course the large teams would eventually figure out a way around that and you'd be back to square one again.

The "real-time" video feed being described certainly doesn't exist now. Even if it did at some point in the past, it offers no advantage now other than to a live human who is trying to make a bet at the last possible moment hoping to see one more odds flash. The pools don't lock based on a video feed. The pools lock when a human being watching the race live locks them at the host track, so a faster video feed is not going to allow you to see the break when others can't and bet accordingly. Jay68802, your experiment would fail.

If you were doing in-race betting, then yes being able to see something before someone else does would matter. Anyone doing that would be best served to be on-track watching live.

I recently had one of our better players tell me that he thought the pools were becoming much more efficient at the bigger tracks, and as a result he was finding fewer overlays and his ROI was declining. That tells me there are more computer players in the pools and that they are likely hitting on the same horses even if they get there by different methodologies. I do know from looking at the Hong Kong pools that they are very efficient, and there is a ton of computer play there, so his suspicions make sense.
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by jay68802 View Post
I have a problem, I would love to try it but can't. My ADW shows the track I live closest to, but I am not allowed to wager on it through the ADW. I want to take my laptop to the track, sit where I can watch the races, and most importantly the start, and see if I can wager, or cancel a wager after I see the start of the race live. The theory being that because the ADW is showing a delayed broadcast of the race, I should be able to bet or cancel a bet through them, right after the start of the race.
I don't think that will work. If so, it is being exploited for sure. I tried it at Lone Star once, no bueno.
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