Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Define "equivocal?"

Look it up in your Funk 'n' Wagnal.

[Actor]

YouTube

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Look it up in your Funk 'n' Wagnal.

Now, now! Let's keep it clean!

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Now, now! Let's keep it clean!

Nothing wrong with my Funk 'n' Wagnal. It's squeaky clean. I betcha the problem is your over-neglected attic.

By the way, would you be interested in learning how all those "Greek" NT writers managed to spread the gospel around the world so rapidly? There is actually an ancient historical backdrop to the Pentecost account in Acts 2.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

By the way, would you be interested in learning how all those "Greek" NT writers managed to spread the gospel around the world so rapidly?

Did the gospel spread around the world rapidly? More rapidly than Mormonism, Scientology, Buddhism, Islam? Do you have numbers? If so, what is their source?

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is actually an ancient historical backdrop to the Pentecost account in Acts 2.

Is the account from a non-biblical source? If so, bring it on.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Did the gospel spread around the world rapidly? More rapidly than Mormonism, Scientology, Buddhism, Islam? Do you have numbers? If so, what is their source?
Is the account from a non-biblical source? If so, bring it on.

The source for absolute truth finds its ground in God and what he has sovereignly chosen to reveal in the holy scriptures about himself, the world and his redemptive plan for mankind.

And, yes, the gospel spread very rapidly according to the ingenious plan of God, as laid out for us in Acts 2. Oh...the inscrutable ways of God!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The source for absolute truth finds its ground in God and what he has sovereignly chosen to reveal in the holy scriptures about himself, the world and his redemptive plan for mankind.

And, yes, the gospel spread very rapidly according to the ingenious plan of God, as laid out for us in Acts 2. Oh...the inscrutable ways of God!

Numbers? Sources? Evidence?

Got any?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Numbers? Sources? Evidence?

Got any?

Sources are various. To begin with, we have the bible. Then there are numerous extra-biblical works on church history, the writings of the Church Fathers, etc. And then there are current stats that tell us that Christianity has about 2.3 billion adherents, Islam about 1.5 billion, etc. Hinduism comes in third with about 900 million. The rest of the world's religions pale by comparison. But another thing about Christianity that is noteworthy is that Christianity is literally worldwide. There are Christians literally all over the world; and the bible predicted the universal extent of Christ's kingdom which, of course, is is his Church. Islam is spreading rapidly but it still has quite a ways to go before it approaches the range of Christianity.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Sources are various. To begin with, we have the bible. Then there are numerous extra-biblical works on church history, the writings of the Church Fathers, etc.

Do they give any numbers?

Originally Posted by boxcar

And then there are current stats that tell us that Christianity has about 2.3 billion adherents, Islam about 1.5 billion, etc. Hinduism comes in third with about 900 million.

Not impressive. 2.3 billion may seem impressive but, if you do the math, not so much. Starting with 11 in the year 33 the growth rate in the early days would have amounted to one convert every 8 years. In 16 years there would have been 13 Christians. The first 16 years of the LDS saw a population of 70,000 migrate to Utah.

Originally Posted by boxcar

But another thing about Christianity that is noteworthy is that Christianity is literally worldwide.

So is Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, ...

Originally Posted by boxcar

Islam is spreading rapidly but it still has quite a ways to go before it approaches the range of Christianity.

Not so far as you might think. Islam is predicted to be the largest religion in the world within the next 50 years, perhaps in your lifetime. It's happening because they are even more anti-birth control than the Catholics.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Do they give any numbers?
Not impressive. 2.3 billion may seem impressive but, if you do the math, not so much. Starting with 11 in the year 33 the growth rate in the early days would have amounted to one convert every 8 years. In 16 years there would have been 13 Christians. The first 16 years of the LDS saw a population of 70,000 migrate to Utah.
So is Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, ...
Not so far as you might think. Islam is predicted to be the largest religion in the world within the next 50 years, perhaps in your lifetime. It's happening because they are even more anti-birth control than the Catholics.

Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism are scattered in pockets of areas on the globe, whereas Christianity is dispersed more evenly across the face of the earth. Christianity has spread to the "four corners" of the world.

The LDS is not even worthy of mention when discussing world religions. Mormonism was simply a flash in the pan and its sizzle burned out just as quickly as its initial flash.

Your math is wonky. In Acts 2, over 3,000 men were converted by Peter's first sermon. And about 5,000 men were converted by his second sermon in Acts 4. And these numbers don't include women and children. And very many of these Jewish converts were pilgrims from other areas in the Roman empire who were visiting Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. After their conversion, they carried the gospel back to their own homeland. Then God super-charged the spread of the gospel, after Stephen's martyrdom, by calling Paul to serve Him as an apostle to the Gentiles. (Stephen's death itself also served as the catalyst for an increased spread of the faith, as many left the Jerusalem and Judea in fear of their life from unbelieving Jews; and these believing Jews also contributed to the growth of the Kingdom of God.) In fact, Paul told the church in Rome that their faith was being proclaimed "throughout the whole world" (Rom 1:8). (Of course, what Paul meant here was throughout the known Roman empire -- but still that covered a lot of territory and was quite a distance from the Palestine of Christ's day.)

Also, we should remember that while scripture teaches that the gospel of the Kingdom of God will fill the entire earth, the bible also teaches everywhere that only a "remnant" of mankind is being saved. There will always be more adherents to other religions in the aggregate than there will be Christians. And if the day comes when Muslims exceed the number of Christians, this still would not come as a surprise.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism are scattered in pockets of areas on the globe, whereas Christianity is dispersed more evenly across the face of the earth.

I have no numbers for Hinduism but the distribution of Muslims and Buddhists around the globe is fairly homogeneous. Islam is the second largest religion in the United States.

Originally Posted by boxcar

The LDS is not even worthy of mention when discussing world religions. Mormonism was simply a flash in the pan and its sizzle burned out just as quickly as its initial flash.

The Jewish and Mormon populations are about equal. The LDS church is quite wealthy and certainly is not going away soon.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your math is wonky.

My math is accurate. Do you want to see the calculations? The numbers are yours. You cite modern statistics in support of your theory that early Christianity grew quickly. It doesn't work. That's my point.

Originally Posted by boxcar

In Acts 2, over 3,000 men were converted by Peter's first sermon. And about 5,000 men were converted by his second sermon in Acts 4. And these numbers don't include women and children.

That's part of the myth. Christian propaganda, nothing more. Can you cite a secular source? Scripture proves nothing.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, we should remember that while scripture teaches that the gospel of the Kingdom of God will fill the entire earth, the bible also teaches everywhere that only a "remnant" of mankind is being saved.

Jehovah Witness teaching.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

I have no numbers for Hinduism but the distribution of Muslims and Buddhists around the globe is fairly homogeneous. Islam is the second largest religion in the United States.
The Jewish and Mormon populations are about equal. The LDS church is quite wealthy and certainly is not going away soon.
My math is accurate. Do you want to see the calculations? The numbers are yours. You cite modern statistics in support of your theory that early Christianity grew quickly. It doesn't work. That's my point.
That's part of the myth. Christian propaganda, nothing more. Can you cite a secular source? Scripture proves nothing.
Jehovah Witness teaching.

Why would any ancient secular-pagan source monitor the progress of first century Christianity? And how would they do that: Conduct private surveys or polls across the Roman empire? Or would they conduct a special religious census every so often?

And what's your point about JW's? They (along with other cults) do agree with some doctrinal elements of biblical Christianity. Blind squirrels do score occasionally, you know?

Another thing about your wonky numbers is that they don't take into account the ongoing and increasing moral/spiritual decline of the human race. Your linear, flat numbers seem to assume static moral/spiritual growth at best. However, scripture tells us that as this age progresses the depravity of fallen mankind will grow widespread like a cancer.

2 Tim 3:1-6
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these.
NASB

The "last days" began with the first advent of Christ (Heb 1:2). In short, this moral decay will increasingly mark the end of this age in spite of the religiosity of mankind. Hell will be filled with religious people who never had saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why would any ancient secular-pagan source monitor the progress of first century Christianity?

They probably did not. That's my point. You have no data to support your claim that "... NT writers managed to spread the gospel around the world rapidly." There is no data either way. To claim that a lack of data supporting one view verifies the opposing view is the fallacy of argument from ignorance.

Originally Posted by boxcar

And what's your point about JW's?

Humor!

Originally Posted by boxcar

Another thing about your wonky numbers is that they don't take into account the ongoing and increasing moral/spiritual decline of the human race.

Is there an "ongoing and increasing moral/spiritual decline of the human race?" Do you have data? What's the metric? What does this new claim have to do with the veracity (or lack of veracity) of your previous claim?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your linear, flat numbers ...

They are neither flat nor linear. They are exponential. Do you want to see my calculations?

Originally Posted by boxcar

... seem to assume static moral/spiritual growth at best. However, scripture ...

... proves nothing.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

They probably did not. That's my point. You have no data to support your claim that "... NT writers managed to spread the gospel around the world rapidly." There is no data either way. To claim that a lack of data supporting one view verifies the opposing view is the fallacy of argument from ignorance.
Humor!
Is there an "ongoing and increasing moral/spiritual decline of the human race?" Do you have data? What's the metric? What does this new claim have to do with the veracity (or lack of veracity) of your previous claim?
They are neither flat nor linear. They are exponential. Do you want to see my calculations?
... proves nothing.

And your lame theories prove less than nothing!

Oh...you want the "metric" for spiritual-moral decay? That's easy. How many world wars do you need? Two is not enough? How many godless, wicked world leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and a host of others who have killed millions in the last century do you need? How much more lunacy do we need in the world, as though gender determination as a state of mind in many nations isn't enough?

And there you go twisting my words again. I never said or implied that that lack of data supports my view or the bible's teaching. I only asked the reasonable question as to why would you expect the ancient pagan world to have kept detailed records on a religion in which it had no interest? However, I also suggested other sources of evidence outside the bible such as church history, the writings of the church fathers, etc. Seeking evidence in these kinds of works is eminently more reasonable.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Oh...you want the "metric" for spiritual-moral decay? That's easy. How many world wars do you need? Two is not enough? How many godless, wicked world leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and a host of others who have killed millions in the last century do you need?

Don't forget Rome, Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan. While you're at it don't leave the church out. There's the Spanish Inquisition, the Borgias. What about Mohammad who spread the word with the sword? What about the hundreds of wars fought over religion alone, e.g., the crusades. What about the church's 200 year witch hunt where thousands died because they befriended a cat?

Oh, but the holocaust killed millions you say. True, but that was about technology, not moral decay. How many more could Genghis Khan's armies have killed if they had the technology to move troops and victims by rail?

Did you not say that capital punishment is morally correct? Well, speaking of the holocaust, what about Nuremberg? What happened to those who engineered the holocaust? They were put on trial. Ten of them were executed. These trials were without precedent in the history of mankind. I put it to you that these trials advanced human morality.

Originally Posted by boxcar

How much more lunacy do we need in the world, as though gender determination as a state of mind in many nations isn't enough?

What are you talking about? I don't want to guess.

Originally Posted by boxcar

I never said or implied that that lack of data supports my view or the bible's teaching. I only asked the reasonable question as to why would you expect the ancient pagan world to have kept detailed records on a religion in which it had no interest?

Since the question under consideration is how rapidly early Christianity grew what else am I to infer?

Originally Posted by boxcar

However, I also suggested other sources of evidence outside the bible such as church history, the writings of the church fathers, etc. Seeking evidence in these kinds of works is eminently more reasonable.

But all of these are unverifiable and written by men who had a vested in perpetuating the myth, ergo, they cannot be taken at face value. It is eminently most reasonable to question their veracity.