Religion II

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Seriously? You're going to ask this after we've been down this road so often?

After? I asked this same question long ago in the Religion I thread and you never answered.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Simple. Scripture teaches that God is an eternal, loving, merciful, compassion, just, holy and righteous being. Therefore, he cannot possibly BE the things you have claimed that he is. What you do is deliberately twist and distort scripture out of its three-fold context and create him as a monster. He cannot be your self-created monster and also be the things I just wrote. Either all the people who wrote scripture were village idiots and contradicted themselves every way but loose OR...you have done what I say you have. You don't want to believe in God which is why you paint him as horrible monster. This self-created monster justifies your unbelief in your own mind -- or more accurately the denial of his existence.

One at a time, one day at a time.

• petty
• unjust
• unforgiving
• control-freak
• vindictive
• bloodthirsty
• ethnic cleanser
• misogynistic <-- today's homily
• homophobic
• racist
• infanticidal
• genocidal
• filicidal
• pestilential
• megalomaniacal
• sadomasochistic
• capriciously malevolent
• bully

misogynistic :

1 Corinthians 14:34,35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Numbers 5:11-31 (emphasis mine)


11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

[Actor]

• petty
• unjust
• unforgiving
• control-freak
• vindictive
• bloodthirsty
• ethnic cleanser
• misogynistic
• homophobic
• racist
• infanticidal ← today’s homily
• genocidal
• filicidal
• pestilential
• megalomaniacal
• sadomasochistic
• capriciously malevolent
• bully

Judges 11

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.
33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.
36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed:

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Scripture teaches that God is not loving, merciful, compassionate, just, ...

FTFY!

Originally Posted by boxcar

What I do is deliberately twist and distort scripture ... make excuses for him.

FTFY!

Originally Posted by boxcar

He cannot be your self-created monster and also be the things I just wrote.

He certainly can't.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Either all the people who wrote scripture were village idiots ...

They certainly were.

Originally Posted by boxcar

... and contradicted themselves every way but loose ...

They certainly did!

Originally Posted by boxcar

You don't want to believe in God ...

Wrong! I want to believe in God. I want to live forever. But, no matter how strongly Christians deny it, belief is not a choice. Pascal's Wager does not work. Either the evidence for God's existence is there or it is not. It is not.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

One at a time, one day at a time.

• petty
• unjust
• unforgiving
• control-freak
• vindictive
• bloodthirsty
• ethnic cleanser
• misogynistic <-- today's homily
• homophobic
• racist
• infanticidal
• genocidal
• filicidal
• pestilential
• megalomaniacal
• sadomasochistic
• capriciously malevolent
• bully

misogynistic :

1 Corinthians 14:34,35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Numbers 5:11-31 (emphasis mine)


11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lord make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

Pick two of them and I will answer. I don't have a lot of time to waste on you.

Also, I have addressed the self-defeating nature of atheism on the old Religious thread.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Pick two of them and I will answer.

The two I've already addressed.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Also, I have addressed the self-defeating nature of atheism on the old Religious thread.

No you have not. You simply repeat the phrase ad nauseam.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

The two I've already addressed.

You count about as well as you remember things! You quoted 3 passages. Pick two.

[Actor]

• petty
• unjust
• unforgiving
• control-freak
• vindictive
• bloodthirsty
• ethnic cleanser ← today’s homily
• misogynistic
• homophobic
• racist ← today’s homily
• infanticidal
• genocidal ← today’s homily
• filicidal
• pestilential
• megalomaniacal
• sadomasochistic
• capriciously malevolent
• bully

ethnic cleanser .. genocidal

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.


10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.


14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?


17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

• petty
• unjust
• unforgiving
• control-freak
• vindictive
• bloodthirsty
• ethnic cleanser ← today’s homily
• misogynistic
• homophobic
• racist ← today’s homily
• infanticidal
• genocidal ← today’s homily
• filicidal
• pestilential
• megalomaniacal
• sadomasochistic
• capriciously malevolent
• bully

ethnic cleanser .. genocidal

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.


10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.


14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?


17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

What is this passage? It's not one that you have quoted recently. Try to keep up with yourself.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You count about as well as you remember things! You quoted 3 passages. Pick two.

I addressed two of the indictments. Today I address another three. Indictments or passages, respond to whatever you want. Make it easy for yourself. Or crawl back into your hole, I don't care. But if you think you are going to shut me up by putting a limit on what I say you are mistaken.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What is this passage? It's not one that you have quoted recently. Try to keep up with yourself.

No, it is not. And there are more to come. Try to keep up with me.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

The bad trait is men wanting to control other men. It would be disingenuous for me to propose religion is immune from this threat and never had been used to control the population.

Men being men, who believe they know what is best or simply want power use any organization, in society, to control people including politics.

Then there are the zealots, who agree with the agenda of those men who want to control. The zealots are the prime movers in imposing the will over the masses, while working inside the masses.

A few questions? I assume you have read the Bible, due to your background. Did Jesus ever compel anyone to believe in him or his teachings? Did the Apostles force people to follow their teachings about Jesus?

It took me a long time to realize that I needed to separate a person's actions from their proclaimed faith, as it was illogical to toss Christianity to the curb for the transgressions of a few bad apples. Slick Willy Clinton, a despicable human being six days a week, got a free "reset" at his local Baptist church on Sundays, but that hardly means all Baptists are like him. But I freely admit I used the hypocrisy of some to denounce organized religion across the board - which I know longer do (or at least try not to).

I have read the Bible several times, though the translated versions might not meet every scholar's approval (King James, Good News). While I did not get the impression that Jesus or the Apostles were "forcing" believers to follow them, certainly the framework of what was required to obtain salvation was clearly laid out - and therefore vulnerable to "controllers" and zealots machinations, and then used for their purposes.

But let's keep in mind other religious figures, like Lao Tzu, Confucius and others also promoted their views on faith in a very humble manner. Others have not been so humble, and were/are definitely self-serving. How a faith is "practiced" is not necessarily the same as a person's belief system, and that applies to Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the Eastern faiths, and even - atheism.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Natural Law is fine but it isn't "perfect" as God's revealed law which is also a perfect reflection of his holy character. And the reason it isn't is because humans are badly flawed and we still tend to add our own rules to "natural law". I could ask you, for example, from whence did you learn Natural Law?
Is Natural Law absolutely true, as God's revealed Law is (cf. Ps 119:142)?

Ps 19:7a
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
NASB

See also Rom 12:2 in this regard.

Natural law, as I view it, is determined by observing the activities of organisms, individuals, groups, tribes, cultures, etc., understanding the ones that promote the survival and flourishing of said participants, within and without harming the supporting environment - and rejecting those that are harmful or out of balance.

These laws, therefore, are not absolute, but relative to time, environment and circumstances. They are, by definition, open to individual interpretation, and therefore rather messy when trying to apply them to society in general. But, that's just the way it is.

God's perfect laws, as described by the Bible, are still open for individual interpretation, and therefore suffer from some of the same problems of application - though, admittedly, under a more narrowly defined set of parameters. But any laws, whether from a strict view of the Bible or from liberal cultural Marxists, soon prove to be harmful by their lack of flexibility - since humans, naturally, are not designed to fit in neat, tidy silos.

Since many cultures across the globe share an overlapping set of behaviors that promote the survival of the group, and allow it to flourish, I have the opinion that the Bible is not the source for these laws, nor can they ever be perfect.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It is true because atheism is a self-defeating philosophy; therefore, it cannot be factual (true).

Using that logic, one can also make the following statement:

Theism is a self-defeating philosophy, therefore, it cannot be factual (true).

Both, of course, are false statements.

Any argument that can be used to debunk atheism can be reversed to debunk theism. Elementary logic "proves" this, which is why both end in a hung jury in a court of law.

Any philosophy which claims to have all the answers, is suspect. I view this limit in terms of faith, which is why I'm agnostic. I understand that most do not impose this limit to include their faith.

I don't discount anyone who believes in God (or the supernatural) (via scripture and/or their own personal experiences), nor do I discount anyone who doesn't believe in God. In their hearts and minds, they have transcended past philosophical limits, made a leap of faith (or lack thereof), and usually landed on the side of believing in God or spirits.

The only self-defeating aspect of all of this is thinking that your own personal view of the supernatural must apply to and be shared by others. Nothing good comes of trying to force the issue.