Medina Spirit dies suddenly

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

Which trainers are not doing that; and what are their win %'s?

One of the great indicators of what is actually going on was when the late Jack Van Berg, late in his career, eschewed doping his horses. Here was a Hall of Fame trainer who had demonstrated enormous competence in both the claiming game and Grade I stakes, and at one point he went something like 1 for 70.

I have said this before, but one of the important aspects of PED use in sports is that once people think that others are doping, they have to dope too. When Ben Johnson tested positive in 1988, it later turned out that 6 of the other 7 people on the starting line with him were established to have been PED users. Lance Armstrong and Alex Rodriguez were both promoted as clean competitors in dirty sports; both later turned out to be doping their eyeballs out.

Baffert is both a substantive problem and a PR problem. And he might actually be worse- messing around with the Triple Crown, and getting caught doing it, is particularly bad.

But the problem for the sport isn't merely Bob Baffert- it's that the entire sport is full of performance enhancing drugs.

[1mileto7Fcutback]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

One of the great indicators of what is actually going on was when the late Jack Van Berg, late in his career, eschewed doping his horses. Here was a Hall of Fame trainer who had demonstrated enormous competence in both the claiming game and Grade I stakes, and at one point he went something like 1 for 70.

Not really. He wasn't getting any Gate Dancer's or Alysheba's in his barn late in his career.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by 1mileto7Fcutback

Not really. He wasn't getting any Gate Dancer's or Alysheba's in his barn late in his career.

That shouldn't matter in claiming races. Presumably Van Berg still knew how to spot his claiming horses (you don't lose that skill), but they just wouldn't perform well without any dope.

[1mileto7Fcutback]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

That shouldn't matter in claiming races. Presumably Van Berg still knew how to spot his claiming horses (you don't lose that skill), but they just wouldn't perform well without any dope.

Of course it matters in claiming races.

[rastajenk]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

One of the great indicators of what is actually going on was when the late Jack Van Berg, late in his career, eschewed doping his horse...

Are you trying to claim that Jack Van Berg never used a Class 4C therapeutic medication in between races (which I assume is what classhandicapper was referring to in the part I quoted...and what BB got popped for)? Never, ever? How could you even guess to know such a thing?

Trainers that use 4C medications are not cheaters, juicers, and/or dopers.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

Are you trying to claim that Jack Van Berg never used a Class 4C therapeutic medication in between races (which I assume is what classhandicapper was referring to in the part I quoted...and what BB got popped for)? Never, ever? How could you even guess to know such a thing?

Trainers that use 4C medications are not cheaters, juicers, and/or dopers.

I think raceday medications are doping and cheating, but I realize that doesn't answer your question.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I think raceday medications are doping and cheating, but I realize that doesn't answer your question.

You think Bute and Lasix are doping?

In 2021 with all the physical strains and environmental contamination IMO hay, oats and water would be a calamity.

Talk about inconsistent form.

When I was a Safety Steward in Ca. I lobbied hard to allow electrolytes to be introduced on race day.

When we were running on the Nor Cal fairs. Horses would start their day at Golden Gate fields in 55 degrees. 6 hours later they'd run at Pleasanton in an oppressive 105 degrees.

They were falling like flies from heat stroke. Nothing the trainers could do.

I didn't see why they couldn't get some electrolyte powder in their morning feed. Or paste a few hours before the race.

My idea didn't get very far because Dr. Arthur thought it could mask other more nefarious drugs.

What a horse does in a race. The physical exertion isn't a natural occurrence. I doubt the maker envisioned horse racing to the extent we now see it.

Bute is no different than aspirin which any athlete may take for natural aches and pains.

And lasix gives them a chance to breathe through the intense surges of blood pressure found in maximum effort.

I don't see either as anything close to doping.

[TonyK@HSH]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

You think Bute and Lasix are doping?

In 2021 with all the physical strains and environmental contamination IMO hay, oats and water would be a calamity.

Talk about inconsistent form.

When I was a Safety Steward in Ca. I lobbied hard to allow electrolytes to be introduced on race day.

When we were running on the Nor Cal fairs. Horses would start their day at Golden Gate fields in 55 degrees. 6 hours later they'd run at Pleasanton in an oppressive 105 degrees.

They were falling like flies from heat stroke. Nothing the trainers could do.

I didn't see why they couldn't get some electrolyte powder in their morning feed. Or paste a few hours before the race.

My idea didn't get very far because Dr. Arthur thought it could mask other more nefarious drugs.

What a horse does in a race. The physical exertion isn't a natural occurrence. I doubt the maker envisioned horse racing to the extent we now see it.

Bute is no different than aspirin which any athlete may take for natural aches and pains.

And lasix gives them a chance to breathe through the intense surges of blood pressure found in maximum effort.

I don't see either as anything close to doping.

Horray Vic- finally some common sense (for the horses good). The pendulum has swung far past the point of reason.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

Which trainers are not doing that; and what are their win %'s?

I don't have any expertise on individual drugs (or procedures), their legitimate use, or their possible abuse, but I've heard stories of procedures that are legal in one state but not another and a horse shipping out for a couple of races, having something done, and then coming back. There's the story of thyroid medicine being used on horses without a thyroid condition etc.. Some grey area stuff like that can probably be eliminated.

[davew]

Does California automatically send track deaths to UC Davis for necropsy?

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by davew

Does California automatically send track deaths to UC Davis for necropsy?

Twitter

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/st...29518945832963

Hopefully it is going to other laboratories that know what they are doing, let alone, handling the specimens properly. I don't want to see that weird hand-holding/escort crap go on like with the Derby stuff.

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by Psychotic Parakeet

Hopefully it is going to other laboratories that know what they are doing, let alone, handling the specimens properly. I don't want to see that weird hand-holding/escort crap go on like with the Derby stuff.

I think they'll get it right this time. Odds are that they find nothing though. We'll see

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

I think they'll get it right this time. Odds are that they find nothing though. We'll see

I would think that if he has been racing clean recently (and I sort of expect that to be the case given all the scrutiny) it would be difficult to prove that any issues he had with his heart were caused by prior performance enhancing medications.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

You think Bute and Lasix are doping?

In 2021 with all the physical strains and environmental contamination IMO hay, oats and water would be a calamity.

Talk about inconsistent form.

When I was a Safety Steward in Ca. I lobbied hard to allow electrolytes to be introduced on race day.

When we were running on the Nor Cal fairs. Horses would start their day at Golden Gate fields in 55 degrees. 6 hours later they'd run at Pleasanton in an oppressive 105 degrees.

They were falling like flies from heat stroke. Nothing the trainers could do.

I didn't see why they couldn't get some electrolyte powder in their morning feed. Or paste a few hours before the race.

My idea didn't get very far because Dr. Arthur thought it could mask other more nefarious drugs.

What a horse does in a race. The physical exertion isn't a natural occurrence. I doubt the maker envisioned horse racing to the extent we now see it.

Bute is no different than aspirin which any athlete may take for natural aches and pains.

And lasix gives them a chance to breathe through the intense surges of blood pressure found in maximum effort.

I don't see either as anything close to doping.

Vic:

What do they allow in Europe?

It seems to me that the existence of large jurisdictions where they not only don't allow these things, but see them as doping, is deadly to any claim that these are necessary. Of course we could get rid of them.

But also, on Lasix specifically, the behavior of trainers indicates THEY think it's performance enhancing. They give it to horses who don't bleed. Why would you give it to horses who don't bleed, unless it's a form of doping.

(And, of course, WADA, which actually knows its stuff on drugs, considers it a masking agent.)

We are so knee deep in doping and cheating, as a sport, that we can't imagine doing something different. But yes, all raceday medication should be banned.