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Old 01-21-2022, 03:53 PM   #8191
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There is a huge disconnect in what you say.

First you reintroduce religion to God which as I say has nothing to do with God, and in fact is a barrier to communion with God.

Second you cannot worship anyone you don't love. You cannot pretend to love God by pretending to do so in order to show off or buy your way into Heaven. That's why there are a lot of clergy in Hell in "Dante's Inferno". God isn't stupid.

Third in order to worship God, you must get to know him. You don't know anyone until you meet them personally. One cannot get to know God personally through religion because God is put on a pedestal that one cannot reach.

Once one gets to know God within, the love for God is naturally off the charts. Worship is not an issue at that point. Worship is a natural offspring of exponential love.

Contrast that with someone being forced or acquiesced to worship a figurehead of a religion because they have to because they are threatened with eternal torture if they don't is like night and day.
Your whole post is a non sequitur. Do you think Jesus told the Samaritan woman that a time was coming and now is when God is going to "force" people to worship him? Is that what you think Jesus was saying? To worship God "in spirit and in truth" is an unduly burdensome command?

But to go with flow of your logic, i.e. knowing God, then loving Him as that true knowledge of him grows, then explain to me why anyone who claims to have a real personal, intimate, loving relationship with God wouldn't be compelled to follow Jesus' instructions in John 4? Didn't Jesus himself also teach, "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15)? Willing and joyful obedience to our Creator-Redeemer is proof-positive that one loves Him. Anything less than this is merely lip service love; yet we are to love in word and DEED (Act 26:20)!

To take this a step further, if one really knows God, then one is also compelled to trust Him. In fact, scripture tells us that "faith without deeds is dead" (Jas 2:26). And what "deeds" did James have in mind? Would they not be good deeds that flow from from obedience to the Royal Law (Jas 2:8)!? After all, it is God's law that is good, holy and righteous (Rom 7:12). Therefore, anything that flows from it, logically, must share the same attributes

Finally, from the very beginning did not God require obedience from our first parents? And when our first parents sinned and felt profound guilt for their sin, didn't they immediately wax "religious" by trying to hide their shame and guilt before their Creator by covering their nakedness with fig leaves (Gen 3:7)? Yet, their vain religious attempt was not good enough for God! Their shame and guilt required atonement by shedding of an innocent animal's blood, which God performed. He clothed them! So yes...from the beginning -- even long before the Law of Moses -- God waxed "religious" too (Gen 3:21)!
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Old 01-22-2022, 01:33 AM   #8192
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Your whole post is a non sequitur.
Its a non sequitur because you forgot that my original response was to the Hitchens video not to some religious drivel of yours. But now that you got me rolling I'll respond to your religious drivel.

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To worship God "in spirit and in truth" is an unduly burdensome command?
Absolutely. Why do you think the church loses so many people? Because they can't relate to God, let alone worship him. So yes it would be extremely burdensome to worship someone you don't know except in theory.

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then explain to me why anyone who claims to have a real personal, intimate, loving relationship with God wouldn't be compelled to follow Jesus' instructions in John 4?
Well, I have a very intimate, loving relationship with God but I don't go opening the Bible for guidance. That's religion. That's for people who don't know God yet in a direct way from within. I get guidance directly from God in the here and now, not from some events in a book. That doesn't mean I don't follow Jesus's way, I do. My life source is direct. He teaches me.

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To take this a step further, if one really knows God, then one is also compelled to trust Him. In fact, scripture tells us that "faith without deeds is dead" (Jas 2:26). And what "deeds" did James have in mind? Would they not be good deeds that flow from from obedience to the Royal Law (Jas 2:8)!? After all, it is God's law that is good, holy and righteous (Rom 7:12). Therefore, anything that flows from it, logically, must share the same attributes
Once again,you are talking about some story 2000 years ago. Irrelevant. I live my own stories with God everyday. I could write my own gospels. But no one would believe them because God and Jesus are not visible. You could say I'm nuts and its all in my head which I'm sure you do like most who read this. But I experience God and Jesus in the here and now so I don't care what anyone thinks of my experience with God. In fact its nobody's business.
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Old 01-22-2022, 10:14 AM   #8193
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Absolutely. Why do you think the church loses so many people? Because they can't relate to God, let alone worship him. So yes it would be extremely burdensome to worship someone you don't know except in theory.
So, Jesus had it wrong? Good to know that you think you're smarter and more spiritually mature than the Son of God who created the universe. For someone who claims to have "very intimate loving relationship with God", you come off as quite arrogant and prideful. For Jesus also taught this:

Matt 11:28-30
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
NIV

Jesus is infinitely more humble than you are; yet you think that you will inherit the kingdom of God!? God hates the proud (Prov 6:17; 1Pet 5:5)! You are so entirely self-deceived that you cannot see that you have developed, by your own carnal mind which has never been transformed, your own religion by trying to approach God strictly on your own terms.

The reason the church loses so many people is primarily because, like you, they don't think they have to "go opening the bible for guidance". The bible is also irrelevant to them. Or another reason is that they pervert the scriptures to tickle their own ears, so God's truth has no place in their heart. Ultimately, they fall away. Jesus even predicted this would happen in the Parable of the Four Soils (Lk 8:4-15).

Jesus also taught in that parable, ironically, that the knowledge of the secrets of the Kingdom of God were given only to God's disciples, but to others he speaks in parables , "so that though seeing they may not see; though hearing they may not understand". You are quite obviously in the group of the "others". You neither see or understand the Gospel of the Kingdom.

There's is nothing burdensome to a believer who serves, worships and obeys Christ out of his love for Him. Biblical love is moral in nature, which is how Jesus could say that if one loves Him, he'll keep his commandments. Paul stated this about love in a negative way: "Love does no wrong, and therefore is the fulfillment of the law"(Rom 13:10). The only "love" you think you have for God is strictly worldly, profane and ungodly in nature. A love that does not move you to serve, worship and obey God is an abomination to him!

Finally, since the Word of God is as eternal as God himself, it is always relevant. Just as God transcends time, so does his Word (Ps 119:89; Mat 5:17-18)).

One more thing: Be sure to let us know when you convert Jesus to your religion and he becomes your disciple. And when he takes your yoke upon himself to learn from you.
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Old 01-22-2022, 08:02 PM   #8194
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So, Jesus had it wrong?
No you have it wrong. You can't read.

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Good to know that you think you're smarter and more spiritually mature than the Son of God who created the universe.
Are you on Acid? Where did I say that?

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Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
For someone who claims to have "very intimate loving relationship with God", you come off as quite arrogant and prideful. For Jesus also taught this:

Matt 11:28-30
28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Well I did what you quote Jesus as saying but you call me arrogant for doing that.

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Jesus is infinitely more humble than you are; yet you think that you will inherit the kingdom of God!?
It's already here. Remember Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within.

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God hates the proud (Prov 6:17; 1Pet 5:5)!
No. An all loving God cannot hate.

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You are so entirely self-deceived that you cannot see that you have developed, by your own carnal mind which has never been transformed, your own religion by trying to approach God strictly on your own terms.
I don't have nor believe in religion as i said regarding Hitchens.


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There's is nothing burdensome to a believer who serves, worships and obeys Christ out of his love for Him.
Of course. But there is great burden to someone who doesn't know Jesus nor cares about him and you try to FORCE him to believe or threaten him with Hell.

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The only "love" you think you have for God is strictly worldly, profane and ungodly in nature.
Speak for yourself. The love I have for God is the love he gave me to love him with. In other words you have no idea.


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One more thing: Be sure to let us know when you convert Jesus to your religion and he becomes your disciple. And when he takes your yoke upon himself to learn from you.
Your low IQ is showing.
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Old 01-22-2022, 09:18 PM   #8195
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No you have it wrong. You can't read. Are you on Acid? Where did I say that?
I read very well. Since you categorically reject Jesus' teaching in Jn 4:21-24, then obviously you must think you're infinitely smarter that he is After all, he did say that his Father seeks people who will worship him in Spirit and in truth. You imply that Jesus is the clueless one who had no idea what his Father wants. Yet, you do!

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Well I did what you quote Jesus as saying but you call me arrogant for doing that.
No, you haven't! You despise the very idea of taking Christ's yoke upon you! Do you know what a yoke is? Do you know what the purpose of a yoke is when placed upon a beast of burden? Besides you already confessed that even when a believer serves, worships and obeys God out of love and gratitude to Him that that kind of love would be a burden. You even said that this is why so many in the church leave. Of course, they leave. They are like you and want nothing to do with the rule of Christ in their hearts.

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It's already here. Remember Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within.
What I do remember is that you just said yesterday that all scripture is irrelevant. But not Lk 17:21? Hypocritical much?

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No. An all loving God cannot hate.
Of course, He can. Not only can He but MUST! Numerous scriptures teach this. His love is a holy, righteous love; therefore, he can only love what is good, righteous and holy, and conversely his holy nature demands that he hate all sin, evil., lawlessness and wickedness. God doesn't suffer from cognitive dissonance like you do. Don't you know that God cannot deny who He is (2Tim 2:13)!? He cannot deny his holy nature!

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I don't have nor believe in religion as i said regarding Hitchens.
Oh, but you do! You believe in YOUR way, YOUR truth, YOUR life. You approach God strictly on your terms, which makes you an idolater. You're a staunch believer in the Religion of Light!

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Of course. But there is great burden to someone who doesn't know Jesus nor cares about him and you try to FORCE him to believe or threaten him with Hell.
This is a classical red herring. The world hates Christ (Jn 7:7). Only those who God causes to be born again have transformed hearts that are spiritually equipped to believe in Christ and repent of their sins.

Can you cite any scripture wherein Jesus ever tried to coerce or force people to believe in him? Yet, he spent 3-1/2 years constantly preaching His Gospel, while simultaneously teaching more about hell than anyone else in scripture!

[quote]Speak for yourself. The love I have for God is the love he gave me to love him with. In other words you have no idea.[/quoe]

The love of God is not within you anymore than it was in the unbelieving Pharisees' hearts (Jn 5:42) for if you had HIS holy love shed abroad in your heart, you would have true humility and would willingly and joyfully submit to the Rule of Christ the King in your heart, which is the essence of the Kingdom of God in this age. Any any thought that service to him, worship of him and obedience to him would be unbearably burdensome would never even enter your mind -- in fact such thoughts would be repulsive to you. But The fact that you're repulsed by this idea worship, service and obedience is proof-positive that you are NOT his. You are just like the enemies of Jesus in his parable of the Minas.

Luke 19:11-27
11 And while they were listening to these things, He went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. 13 "And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business with this until I come back.' 14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.' 15 "And it came about that when he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him in order that he might know what business they had done. 16 "And the first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.' 17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, be in authority over ten cities.' 18 "And the second came, saying, 'Your mina, master, has made five minas.' 19 "And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.' 20 "And another came, saying, 'Master, behold your mina, which I kept put away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you did not sow.' 22 "He said to him, 'By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down, and reaping what I did not sow? 23'Then why did you not put the money in the bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?' 24 "And he said to the bystanders, 'Take the mina away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.' 25 "And they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas already.' 26 "I tell you, that to everyone who has shall more be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27 "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
NASB

By the way, in this parable Jesus is the nobleman who went "to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself". Just in case you're confused.

You are just like the enemies in this parable. The only Jesus that appeals to you is someone who would cozy up to the bar with you as your drinking buddy! But the Jesus who is the Creator of the universe and is its sovereign King of kings and Lord of lords -- this Jesus you want no part of.

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Your low IQ is showing.
It's the only logical inference to your rejection of God's truth. Since you categorically reject God's Word because it's irrelevant, then obviously, you must think you're smarter than the Living Word is. Why else would you reject the Word of God? It must be because you think you have all the true answers life's really important questions! But Jesus...not so much!
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Old 01-23-2022, 12:28 AM   #8196
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I read very well. Since you categorically reject Jesus' teaching in Jn 4:21-24, then obviously you must think you're infinitely smarter that he is After all, he did say that his Father seeks people who will worship him in Spirit and in truth. You imply that Jesus is the clueless one who had no idea what his Father wants. Yet, you do!
This^^^^ is as stupid as it gets.



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Besides you already confessed that even when a believer serves, worships and obeys God out of love and gratitude to Him that that kind of love would be a burden.
Another lie. Quote me.



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What I do remember is that you just said yesterday that all scripture is irrelevant. But not Lk 17:21? Hypocritical much?
You don't need to read Lk 17:21 to know God is within.


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Of course, He can. Not only can He but MUST! Numerous scriptures teach this. His love is a holy, righteous love; therefore, he can only love what is good, righteous and holy, and conversely his holy nature demands that he hate all sin, evil., lawlessness and wickedness. God doesn't suffer from cognitive dissonance like you do. Don't you know that God cannot deny who He is (2Tim 2:13)!? He cannot deny his holy nature!
God hates no one. He even loves Hitler.

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You approach God strictly on your terms
The terms I came to God from I would not wish on my worst enemy. They would decimate you.
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Old 01-23-2022, 01:05 AM   #8197
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The terms I came to God from I would not wish on my worst enemy. They would decimate you.
tell us your story.....
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Old 01-23-2022, 01:09 AM   #8198
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tell us your story.....

Can't. It's sacred
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Old 01-23-2022, 01:21 AM   #8199
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Can't. It's sacred
I'm decimated....
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:30 AM   #8200
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I'm decimated....
His story is more "sacred" than God himself is.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:36 AM   #8201
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This^^^^ is as stupid as it gets.
You won't get an argument from me there. The implications to what you write are often off-the-charts stupid! Your rejection of Jn 4:21-24 make for anohter one of those moments whereby you clearly imply that Jesus was either a lunatic or or a liar, since he got it all wrong. You imply that Jesus, obviously, didn't know his own Father very well -- what his Father wants!

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Another lie. Quote me.
Well, for one thing you never answered my questions in 8191 to wit:

Me:
But to go with flow of your logic, i.e. knowing God, then loving Him as that true knowledge of him grows, then explain to me why anyone who claims to have a real personal, intimate, loving relationship with God wouldn't be compelled to follow Jesus' instructions in John 4? Didn't Jesus himself also teach, "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15)? Willing and joyful obedience to our Creator-Redeemer is proof-positive that one loves Him. Anything less than this is merely lip service love; yet we are to love in word and DEED (Act 26:20)!

You obviously cannot answer the questions and most likely think that that kind of godly love that would compel godly behavior, too, is just as burdensome.

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[You don't need to read Lk 17:21 to know God is within.
Then, hypocrite, why have you appealed to the text so often?

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God hates no one. He even loves Hitler.
Which again implies that we sinful mortals are far more righteous than God; for the vast majority of us don't love what is evil, most especially when we or some loved one of ours is the object of wrongdoing. Your entire premise is not only unbiblical but illogical; for you would have us believe that God can act contrary to his nature -- that he can love what is antithetical to his holy nature.

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The terms I came to God from I would not wish on my worst enemy. They would decimate you.
Wow! I'm almost impressed.
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Old 01-23-2022, 07:13 PM   #8202
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God's Love is Sacrifical and Moral in Nature

This is an extremely important topic because when we talk about God's love, we're actually making a statement about his moral character. So, for example, when Light tells us that God loved Hitler, or once he told us that God even loved Satan, or that God loves all things in this world whether good or evil, he is casting the worst possible dispersion upon God's holy character imaginable! In fact, such statements are blasphemous against God!

Since Jesus taught that only God alone is [inherently] good (Mk 10:18), then how would it logically be possible for this good, holy, righteous and just God to love anything or anyone that is antithetical to his character? It is no wonder, therefore, that scripture is loaded with passages that tell us that God hates sin and the sinner alike, and that conversely loves that which is good! God must hate the sinner because the fountainhead of sin is in man's evil heart. And Jesus clearly taught that mankind is [inherently] evil (Mat 7:11; 12:34). (This fact accounts for the necessity of the New Covenant promise of a new heart from God, cf. Ezek 36:26).

We know that biblical/godly love (not to be confused with worldly love) is moral in nature by what scripture teaches. Again, Jesus said, "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15). Notice in this passage that obviously, willingly, joyful obedience flows from the love of God (i.e. godly love in a person's heart!). We see this same logical arrangement in Ex 20:6 and Deut 5:10 wherein these passages teach that God shows love to those who love and keep his commandments. Again, the love of God within a person's heart compels to willingly and joyfully submit to the Sovereign Lordship of his Creator and Redeemer.

Jesus also taught that upon the two greatest commandments (love for God and love for neighbor) all the Law and the Prophets turn (Mat 7:12; 22:40). One might easily enough understand how the Law of Moses could rest upon these two commandments but wonder about the Writings of the Prophets. But this is easily understood when we recognize that the primary function of the ancient Jewish prophets was to give moral/spiritual instruction to their wayward, covenant-breaking countrymen.

And Paul taught that "love does no wrong" (Rom 13:10).

Therefore, there is unquestionably a huge moral component to biblical or godly love, a/k/a "the love of God".

Below is a link to a site that list "10 Things God Loves". Eight of these are quite straightforward and require no comment. However, I disagree with the writer's interpretations of items 2 and 6, which I'll now set out to correct. The writer reached the wrong conclusions on these two items either by sloppy exegesis and/or his biased presuppositions which he brought to bear upon the passages he cited.

https://www.gregoryscottblog.com/kin...ngs-god-loves/

2. The world. John 3:16. (Interesting that so many Christians are trying to escape the planet the Lord loves and wants to transform.)

What Jn 3:16 is not teaching is that God loves each and every person in the world in a distributive sense, as this would contradict numerous other scriptures. How a pious, Old Covenant Jew would have understood this New Covenant expression of God's relationship with the world would have been through the promise God made to Abraham through the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 13, 15, 17, 22, etc.). The thrust of the messianic promise to Abraham is that God would bless the gentile nations through him and thereby make Abraham the "father of many nations"; and this would all be accomplished by first making Abraham the Father of a great nation, i.e. Israel! So...there is a spiritual and ethnic side to the promise regarding the "fatherhood" of Abraham. Abraham was literally the ethnic father of the nation Israel and was just as literally the spiritual father of many gentile nations. The Abrahamic Covenant is a huge theme that runs throughout the entire bible; yet nowhere does the bible teach that God promised to make Abraham the [spiritual] father of each and ever person on the planet! And this presents no small problem to those who subscribe to twin heresies of God's supposed unconditional and universal love for each and every person in the world. The problem is that God never made a redemptive Covenant with each and every person on the planet! In order for everyone to be saved and to enter the kingdom of God, God would have had to do this! Yet, when we examine the Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic and the eternal New Covenant we don't even get a remote hint of universal salvation. The best and biblical way of understanding Jn 3:16, therefore, is by this text:

Rev 7:9
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.
NIV

Again, this passage does not teach that each and every person whoever lived stood before the throne of God. Certainly...a "great multitude" but that doesn't mean each and every person. The passage above squares quite nicely with the Genesis chapters I cited above and even with Jn 3:16. God so loved the world (i.e. the gentiles) or God so loved a "great multitude from every nation, tribe, people and language." To a Jewish mind, there were only two kinds of people on the planet: Uncircumcised Gentiles and Circumcised Jews who were God's chosen covenant people.

6. Non-Christians. I John 4:10-11, Romans 5:8. (Surprised?)

Well...at least Mr. Scott is consistent. Sadly, consistently wrong! Of course, it follows logically that if his understanding of Jn 3:16 is correct, then God loved evil unbelievers, i.e. "non-Christians". However the two passages he cites above do not teach that God loved "non-Christians". This is very sloppy exegesis on his part and betrays his ignorance of the bible, as well!

While it is true that Jesus reconciled sinners to himself in space and time, since He had to leave his eternal abode and enter into our temporal realm to save anyone by his death, burial and resurrection, it does not necessarily follow that God the Father also loved us (i.e. sinners) in space and time. Scott made twi fatal errors here.

First, the "us" in both passages is talking about believers. Neither John or Paul wrote their epistles to the world. They wrote their respective epistles to a specific target audience: John to "my dear children", "dear friends", etc. (1Jn 2:1, 7, etc.) and uses the pronouns we, us and you all throughout the epistle. And Paul wrote his epistle to those in "Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints" (Rom 1:7), and likewise throughout his epistle used the personal pronouns we, us and you.

The fatal logical error to Mr. Scott's conclusion to item 6 is that he certainly appears to be conflating the salvific work of Christ in space and time with the Father's love for sinners, which scripture clearly teaches has its origin in eternity! In other words, while Christ assuredly reconciled "[unbelieving] sinners" to his Father in temporal reality, this doesn't alter the fact that God sovereignly chose to love those "sinners" by identifying them with Christ in eternity, so that in God's eyes those "sinners" were always God's elect saints. God's eternal love, that motivated him to save a people for himself, has it source in eternity, whereas Christ's redemptive work on the cross could only be accomplished in time and space. Therefore, the upshot to all this is that God always loved his elect, not sinners because He chose his elect to be in Christ before the foundation of the world! Here are a few prooftexts:

Rom 8:28-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
NIV

And God did this "foreknowing" in eternity!

1 Cor 1:26-31
26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things — and the things that are not — to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 [b]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God — that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.[/i] 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."
NIV

The "him" in v. 30 is God the Father! It is because of Him you saints are Christ. This is because the Father chose them to be his Christ in eternity -- not in space and time.

Eph 2:8
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
NIV

God could love us and express his kindness to us strictly on the merits of his Son's life and redemptive work on behalf of His elect. The Father expressed his kindness to his elect in Christ Jesus. In other words, the only way God can love sinners is on the basis of God identifying them with his Son. In fact, God makes Jesus to be the Federal Head of all his elect, just as Adam is the federal head of all who die in him! This is precisely why in Rom 5:14. Adam is called a type of Christ -- a type strictly by contrasts!

2 Tim 1:9-10
9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus,
NIV


This is an utterly remarkable passage. Look at this passage very carefully:"This grace was given us (saints!) in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.... In other words, it was given in ETERNITY! God always loved his people -- long before He created anything. Verse 10, now, makes a contrast starting off with "but". The grace that was given to God's chosen people in eternity was made manifest to God's elect in space and time through Christ's first advent! There is a similar passage along these lines that deals with Jacob and Esau and how God, long before the twins were born and did anything good or bad, had decided their eternal destiny (Rom 9:10-13).

This is where Mr. Scott fumbled the ball badly. In God's eyes, he loved his chosen ones in eternity solely on the merits of Christ's life and redemptive work on the cross on behalf of his Father's elect. God, in a real sense, never viewed them as "sinners", per se. He viewed his chosen ones as his sons and daughters in Christ.
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Old 01-24-2022, 08:35 AM   #8203
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The Flip Side to What God Loves...

is what He hates!

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...-Hating-Things

Scripture is quite consistent with itself.
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Old 01-26-2022, 03:35 PM   #8204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Well, I have a very intimate, loving relationship with God but I don't go opening the Bible for guidance. That's religion. That's for people who don't KNOW God yet in a direct way from within. [i]I get guidance directly from God in the here and now, not from some events in a book. That doesn't mean I don't follow Jesus's way, I do. My life source is direct. He teaches me.
(emphasis mine)

Of course, "he teaches" you. And everything he teaches you just happens to contradict what He taught in the scriptures.

If fact, the scriptures say this about knowing God:

1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
NIV

"But if anyone obeys his word, the love of God (to paraphrase) is truly made complete in him." God's love!
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Old 01-29-2022, 01:48 PM   #8205
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The Kingdom of God "within"?

Good afternoon, Mr. Light. You've been very silent the past week or so. I guess you're not smarter than your "best friend", after all. Jesus really did know the truth and preached and taught it!

I'm doing a study on the Kingdom and came across a verse that puts another nail in your theory that the Kingdom of God was "within" Christ's sworn enemies the Pharisees (and Sadducees for that matter). But before we look at that passage, let's do a quick review of the three main reasons I have provided in the past for why your theory holds no water.

First, your interpretation of Lk 17:21 doesn't even fit with the immediate context of the passage.

Secondly, in order for God's Kingdom to be "within" a person, that person must be in the Holy Spirit. In fact, to be in the kingdom is to experience "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" through the sanctifying work of the Spirit (Rom 14:17). But the huge problem here is that the gift of the Holy Spirit was not given to unbelievers but only to the Church after Jesus ascended into heaven -- to be exact... 10 days after on the day of Pentecost. Therefore, the Kingdom of God was in no one prior to the feast day of Pentecost (Act 1:1-5; 2:1-4)!

Thirdly, Jesus told the chief priests and Pharisees that the Kingdom of God would be taken away from them and would be given to a "nation producing the fruit of it" (Mat 21:43). And Jesus wasn't talking about the visible, physical aspect of the kingdom either! He was talking about the spiritual, invisible aspect that is "here and now" in this age. We can know this because the kingdom was going to be given only to God's elect, which of course would include gentile believers. God's elect is the "nation" to whom the kingdom would be given (1Pet 2:9). And God's elect are fully expected to produce spiritual fruit in this age (Lk 8:11-15)! So, when Christ spoke these words to the chief priests and Pharisees, he was actually telling them that the kingdom would be taken away from Israel as a geopolitical entity. And this was ultimately accomplished in 70 A.D. when Israel, as a geopolitical entity, ceased to be the chosen, covenant people of God. So, God took away the kingdom from one nation to give it to another -- a spiritual nation without physical borders!

Now to the passage that puts, yet, another nail in your lame theory. Matthew 13 is without doubt the central chapter in all the bible that teaches us what the nature of and different aspects to the kingdom are. Jesus taught his disciples by a series of parables in rapid fire succession.

Matt 13:33
33 He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."
ESV

The term "leaven" in scripture can mean "evil" or "good", depending upon the context of the passage. During the Exodus when the Jews celebrated their first Passover in Egypt it was used in negative sense to denote evil. The Jews were not only forbidden to use any leaven (yeast) in their bread but were even forbidden to have any leaven in their household during this Feast. In the NT, we find the negative use of this term in such passages as Gal 5:7-9; 1Cor 5:7-8, etc. In addition, we have this passage as well:

Matt 16:5-12
5 When the disciples reached the other side, they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6 Jesus said to them, "Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 7 And they began discussing it among themselves, saying, "We brought no bread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? 9 Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 11 How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12 Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
ESV

In this passage, Jesus warned his disciples about the evils inherent in the teachings of the religious establishment. The danger is that their false teaching, that was contrary to the Word of God, would permeate and spread throughout all of one's faculties, thereby prohibiting him from believing the Gospel. (See Luke 8 the Parable of the Four Soils). But in the kingdom parable, "leaven" is used in a good sense since the only way the Kingdom has spread and is continuing to spread throughout the world is by the preaching of the Gospel (i.e. good news) and the effectual application of that preaching to the minds, hearts and souls of God's elect by the Holy Spirit, who himself is the very God of God (Act 5:1-4) and, therefore, He alone is good. At the end of the day, what determines when "leaven" is a medium for good or bad is what controls us. Paul explains this in Romans 7 and 8 and how each of us is either controlled by the flesh (sinful nature) or by the Holy Spirit ("divine nature").

So, Mr. Light, you claim that the evil, unbelieving, Christ-hating Pharisees had the kingdom of God "within" them, but very obviously it didn't do them one scintilla's worth of good! For Jesus was compelled to warn his disciples about the leaven of those wicked Pharisees and Sadducees! Yet, if one truly has the kingdom within him by the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit then one would naturally think that that holy leaven would produce good fruit,which is precisely what scripture teaches (see Romans 8)! But the Pharisees of Jesus' day, for the most part, produced nothing but bad fruit, as they were actually enemies of Christ as depicted in Jesus' Parable of the Ten Minas in Luke 19.
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