gate accident in 10th

[Gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

First of all, stop with the ad hominem attacks. Seriously. Stop. They just make you look like a jerk- and by the way, I've heard from several people in the industry who think very poorly of you for precisely those reasons.

Learn to say what you think without personally attacking people. It's a skill. It's a skill that shows intelligence, and tact, and a positive personality. You need to learn it, and frankly, I am surprised you haven't, because most people with prominent, public facing jobs understand this.

On the merits, my opinion is this:

"Unscratching" would create massive new problems. It would create incredible confusion as bettors don't know if the horse is in or out of the race. The announcement might not be heard in the bowels of the racetrack, at simulcast outlets, or online by players who are getting limited information. And unlike a scratch, where everyone (except players of certain horizontal wagers, which I will talk about in a second) gets their money back, in the case of an unscratch, you can have the situation of people betting horse X not knowing horse Y is still in the race. That's just a disgustingly bad situation.

It could also lead to shenanigans. If someone has the power to scratch, and unscratch, a savvy insider who paid off the right people could use that to increase the odds of his horse, by causing people to get refunds of their tickets.

Indeed, on Friday, had the been unscratched, there were almost certainly people in the Del Mar grandstand and in other locations who would have already received refunds on their bet and had either passed the race or bet other horses. Had the horse been unscratched, those people would have been on Twitter and on this forum and everywhere else telling us THEY got screwed. And they would have received the same sympathy the horizontal bettors are now getting.

You know what, Andy? There's no perfect rule here. There's no rule that you or me or anyone else can come up with that can perfectly deal with every unforeseen situation. There's no rule that won't leave some group of gamblers unhappy. That doesn't mean the CHRB rule is anti-horseplayer. At worse, it protects some horseplayers in some situations while leaving the people who bet horizontal bets on Friday out in the cold.

And that's why the "ALL" race (which I believe your jurisdiction can declare when a race is moved off the turf) is such an elegant solution. It protects the horizontal bettors while NOT getting into a situation that can lead to all sorts of shenanigans as horses get pulled out of the race and then get put back in. It's a good solution. California should implement it, at least when a favorite gets removed from a race late.

But the last thing we want to do is allow "unscratches". You won't be hurt- you have the ability to go on nyrabets or whatever platform you use and you have perfect, up to the minute information due to your job. But for the stiff in line in the grandstand, it could result in a terrible injustice.

It's really simple to fix. If a horse is scratched, correctly or incorrectly, it should not run. If the tracks can figure and pay conso on scratches in DD,P3 payouts they can on P4,P5, and P6. That is an easy fix.

[Gamblin4ever]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

https://twitter.com/sidgustafson/sta...81132554080257


https://twitter.com/PatCummingsTIF/s...45800906354692


https://twitter.com/gaffs0034/status...77608297312263


https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/st...90993088987140

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

NO.

After restoring a mistakenly scratched horse to the tote:

A simple glance at the toteboard (or TV monitor) is all that's required to know a horse is (still) a live betting interest.

You can't tell me on track bettors aren't constantly looking at the odds and the will-pays on the toteboard or TV monitors. (Every on track bettor knows where to look.)



Again NO.

If you are worried about unscrupulous stewards abusing restoration of mistakenly scratched horses to the tote you are basically admitting racing already has a HUGE integrity problem.

Stewards have the ability to alter the finish positions of horses in any race as they see fit.

What is to stop unscrupulous stewards from abusing their ability to alter the original order of finish?

Imo, nothing.

I may see stewards as human and subject to human error (but not unscrupulous.)

But if unscrupulous stewards were truly a concern, I would argue we need to take away their ability to alter the original order of finish.



-jp

.

You don't need an unscrupulous steward Jeff. An unscrupulous tote employee might suffice.

And more generally, horseplayers are a conspiratorial lot. If an "unscratch" happened, they would be on Twitter, here, and elsewhere, looking at how much money came out of the win pool and who stood to benefit and accusing officials of being on the take. The sport would be accused of doing something shady because, you know what, taking a horse out and telling the bettors, and then putting the horse back in, IS shady.

[Jeff P]

I agree. (What they ended up doing was shady.)

I also agree that restoring a mistakenly scratched horse back into the tote for wagering purposes will always be seen by some as shady (depending which horses you have on your tickets and their finish positions.)

That said, given a choice between the two options:

#1. What they were forced to do on Friday because of the current rules.

#2. What they could have done on Fri if a rule were in place allowing them to restore the mistakenly scratched horse back into the tote for wagering purposes.

As a Horseplayer my gut is telling me:

Option #2 (the mistakenly scratched horse can be wagered on and the multi-race exotics remain intact) is better than Option #1.


-jp

.

[Jeff P]

PS. I've said what's on my mind.

It's obvious neither one of us are ever going to convince the other into changing their opinion.

You can have the last word.


-jp

.

[the little guy]

Note to Dilanesp.....I barely ever open your posts....and I certainly don't read epic tomes from you ( or anyone...except maybe CJ ). Don't bother. Get a hobby. If you haven't read the new Gary Shteyngart book, I highly recommend it. The new Franzen book is great as well.

[Andy Asaro]

Twitter

[Robert Fischer]

who cares if he reared?

we love to quibble and gossip


how about fixing the rules?

have stewards+an expert (or pay some experts to be stewards)
have a good vet (they already do)

and spend 10 minutes discussing the best course of action amongst each other and whether the owner wants to run??

if the horse is 50-1 , get it the hell out of the track, but if the horse is a contender and checks out fine, and the experts think he's fine, and the owners think he's fine ...

run the horse , or only THEN scratch the horse



Why are we quibbling about stupidity,
OH BOY CURRENT RULE XYZ MAY HAVE BEEN SLIGHTLY AJAR

OH BOY


as if we live in a locked unmalleable universe [*Same universe that chrb or whatever uses to charge 23% or whatever for a P5 to Modern Games... "OH BOY rule 1979.6chrb.. GTFO w/ that cowardly bs...]

IDGAF if he reared or not

who cares?? who cares one way or the other??

it's not the footwork that's the issue

Get the event correct.


and as a bonus, how about not trying to time 'sunset' to climax our wonderful experience??

leave some time in case there are a few delays...

have a bourbon and watch the sunset after the races


goofy as shit

[cj]

Originally Posted by cj

Yes, they admitted the horse was scratched prematurely without being examined. They say the horse reared up (I've yet to see it) and then busted through the gate, so the two things together led to the scratch. Of course he didn't bust through the gate. The first one is debatable. But in an "and" situation both have to be true, not one.

I knew the reared up part was BS when they said it. I just knew it. How, you might ask?

BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THEY STARTED THE PRESSER! As soon as I heard it the first thought was he didn't rear, they are saying that as an excuse. What a freaking embarrassment. Not only have they not apologized to bettors, they have now been caught telling stories that simply aren't true to explain the mistake.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

who cares if he reared?

Nobody would care had it not been the lead of the CHRB press conference, the very first excuse they trotted out.

[lex]

Now they are saying they let a horse run that reared and knocked himself around in the gate? So the breaking through the gate brought an instant scratch but the horse rearing and knocking himself around is a big nothing? There's no evidence that the horse reared at all and they think this a better story.

[lex]

Oh now I see they've corrected their possible PR disaster.

[rastajenk]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

PS. I've said what's on my mind.

It's obvious neither one of us are ever going to convince the other into changing their opinion.

You can have the last word.jp

You know he will

[Michael]

I spent this past Monday night going over all my wagers that I placed over this past weekend. The dust from Breeders Cup weekend has finally settled, and “MY” number one lesson and take away from this debacle? Is that going forward I simply can’t accept taking losses on wagers that I win.

I hit the pick-5 and 10 fifty-cent pick 3’s and was more or less lied to, told to go pound sand, and to just accept the poor outcome on financial bets that I made and won. The salt in the wound is #1 being lied to by third parties that are covering up for gross incompetence. #2 reading other handicappers and racing fans telling me “you’re not going to quit this game, and it’s your fault for betting on horses... this is what you signed up for” #3 The worst imo - is seeing people that I follow and “respect” on social media calling people like me… (a fellow horse player) a “whiner” and that we as a group complain about everything.

How exactly am I suppose to react? Honestly this incident won’t effect my life in any major way, shape, or form. Nevertheless, MY lesson to learn is to simply not place bets across multiple races anymore... and to just avoid doubles, pick-3,4,5, and 6’s and just enjoy the sport for what it is.

It’s a sport I love. It’s just also a sport that lies to it’s fans, and a sport who values cheating trainers over paying customers. Unlike the racing industry, I haven’t ignored the rampant cheating going on. The owners are the real losers taking it on the chin.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by cj

I knew the reared up part was BS when they said it. I just knew it. How, you might ask?

BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THEY STARTED THE PRESSER! As soon as I heard it the first thought was he didn't rear, they are saying that as an excuse. What a freaking embarrassment. Not only have they not apologized to bettors, they have now been caught telling stories that simply aren't true to explain the mistake.

I don’t know how they even came up with “the horse reared”

They have to know every second of the event is on camera?