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Old 04-24-2019, 05:50 AM   #46
highnote
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The racing industry in North America is basically a welfare/subsidy program for owners (and to a lesser extent trainers). Every decision over the last 30 years was a short sighted decision to benefit owners. What probably needs to be done is get rid of the claiming system and go to all handicaps but trainers and horsemen love those 5 horse fields with 3 layers of conditions so their horse can go off at 1-5 and collect 40K like they are entitled to it. Anything that makes field sizes larger and tougher for owners to collect a win to pay for their purchases with consistency will be fought hard, because f*** the horseplayers and public
Exactly.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:07 AM   #47
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I see more hostages in this game than stakeholders , certainly among the customers.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:50 AM   #48
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Here it is.


https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...-put-in-trust/
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:01 AM   #49
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this statement is strange (from a stakeholder)

“Why don't we just shut the track down and you just compensate everybody while we're doing it,” Hartunian said.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:49 AM   #50
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Exactly. Now you're getting it. Isn't this what customers have been doing for the past 30 or more years as racing has declined.

You use semantics and hypotheticals to try to make your point or ask absurd questions about whether or not a stakeholder/customer should have the ability to hire or fire.

Earlier in the thread I defined what a stakeholder is in the generally accepted business definition. My point was that Stronach did not mention customers as being stakeholders. That spoke volumes about the importance of people who help fund his operations.
Why do you assume that Stronach is not considering customers? You make simplistic comments about how all a business needs to do is take care of their customers and they will thrive. My hypotheticals were to point out the absurdity of your statement. Taking care of a customer is providing a product they want to buy at a price they are willing to pay. Sounds simple enough until you throw in the cost constraints that are a part of every business.

Customers have been fleeing racing for many years now because the product is not in demand. People who are long-time race bettors are myopic in their view of racing and what it need to thrive. Your HK model might very well please existing players but non-players couldn't care less about fields with 14 horses all racing drug-free.

Do you think bowling is no longer as popular as it once was because the customers were not "taken care of" or do you think that the increase in alternative forms of recreation was the cause?
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:53 AM   #51
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I see more hostages in this game than stakeholders , certainly among the customers.
Please elaborate.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:00 PM   #52
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Customers have been fleeing racing for many years now because the product is not in demand.

Do you think bowling is no longer as popular as it once was because the customers were not "taken care of" or do you think that the increase in alternative forms of recreation was the cause?

This, 100 times over. The decline in the sport is a strict popularity issue.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:08 PM   #53
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The racing industry in North America is basically a welfare/subsidy program for owners (and to a lesser extent trainers). Every decision over the last 30 years was a short sighted decision to benefit owners. What probably needs to be done is get rid of the claiming system and go to all handicaps but trainers and horsemen love those 5 horse fields with 3 layers of conditions so their horse can go off at 1-5 and collect 40K like they are entitled to it. Anything that makes field sizes larger and tougher for owners to collect a win to pay for their purchases with consistency will be fought hard, because f*** the horseplayers and public

Another one who clearly doesn't understand an owners finances. For every owner who is breaking even there are 10 more who are losing their ass.



If owning a horse came with such great welfare/ subsidies, how then do you end up with 5 horse fields?
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:44 PM   #54
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The racing industry in North America is basically a welfare/subsidy program for owners (and to a lesser extent trainers). Every decision over the last 30 years was a short sighted decision to benefit owners.

While owners have benefited from those decisions, it is more a function of racing having given the customers what they've wanted over the past 35 years which has racing circling the toilet in 2019.

In 1984 we sat around trading punches in the WPS pools all day, with everyone knowing a much greater chance of going home with most of their bankroll, with enough to play another day. Furthermore, we played almost every race with the revenue churning each time the bell sounded.


It wasn't some brainiac suddenly inventing the pick-3 as if it were an artificial heart (and a godsend for the whole of society), it was a function of giving the public what it wanted which began the life-sucking exercise of putting money on the shelf and leaving it there for X races at a time. That while at the same time making it exponentially more difficult to win the bets you make and having anything left for tomorrow.

That trend began in earnest with the late 1980's and it was soon exacerbated by turning on the signals to multiple simulcast tracks with more and more OTB's scattered around, all of which served to harm the big picture in the interest of seeming to make it somehow better for the individual at the time.

Horse racing lost a generation of young, new fans in ways which parallel China having lost a generation of daughters, but at least China has shown the common sense to begin to repair what it has done to itself while horse racing and nearly all of you are too clueless to recognize what you've been doing to yourselves for decades.

Common sense is a prerequisite for turning around this complete mess you have thrust upon yourselves and it appears that none of you here can even understand what you have done to yourselves, and to racing by your own repetitive blunders, so clearly common sense is way beyond your pay grades.


Nobody need give a #$&* about racing surfaces, late money, takeout, or drugs in racing, as those are mere Band-aid wounds relative to all of that woes that you yourselves have brought upon racing over the past 35 years.

Common sense would recognize the impossible equation which you have created for the would-be (lol - lets use highnote's absurd suggestion: ) "young" new track visitor when he/she steps into the mutuel pools and then common sense would make the ONLY priority to bring some hope, and some balance to that person's grim outlook which was effected entirely by you.


Instead of employing common sense in reversing the lethal effects of your clueless paths, you instead ask the insane questions which parallel:

"Well what more can racing do for me ???? "

(and you decide that your position is correct just by virtue of so many other industry stakeholders asking the same wrong-sighted question)


Horse racing as it has devolved in North America is still the ONLY gamble out there which can actually DO something direct for its customers every minute of the racing day... and yet the whole industry combined does the sum total of ZERO for its customers merely because it's always been that way.


Common sense simply doesn't mesh with the racing industry's screwed-up way of thinking.


When horse racing resolves to Doooooooooooo something in uniform fashion for ALL of those who wander through its gates each day, only then will it begin to reverse the strong currents which see it only circling the toilet in 2019.


Doing one more idiotic thing to appease Barry Irwin and then letting yourselves feel that you've been fair to all just isn't going to suffice anywhere outside of the drain.
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Old 04-24-2019, 01:51 PM   #55
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The racing industry in North America is basically a welfare/subsidy program for owners (and to a lesser extent trainers). Every decision over the last 30 years was a short sighted decision to benefit owners. What probably needs to be done is get rid of the claiming system and go to all handicaps but trainers and horsemen love those 5 horse fields with 3 layers of conditions so their horse can go off at 1-5 and collect 40K like they are entitled to it. Anything that makes field sizes larger and tougher for owners to collect a win to pay for their purchases with consistency will be fought hard, because f*** the horseplayers and public
It's sad that this is more true than not. Anyone skeptical of this point of view should look at all the other sports where people conveniently disregard reporting on the owner benefits. The best example of this otherwise is major league sports owners getting taxpayer funded stadiums. That's been one of the largest glaring crocks of doo-doo for years ...
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:24 PM   #56
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Do you think bowling is no longer as popular as it once was because the customers were not "taken care of" or do you think that the increase in alternative forms of recreation was the cause?
Okay...let's say that yesterday's bowlers and pool players are now out on the golf course. What do you suppose the ex-horseplayers are doing now? Aren't all the other gambling alternatives WAY more inconvenient than horseracing? In what other legal gambling endeavor can you participate fully while still in the comfort of your own home...in your pajamas?

I can see why horseracing isn't attracting any uninitiated new players...but the game is losing its existing, dedicated fan base, and it isn't just that the hardcore horseplayers are dying off. Are the ex-horseplayers out on the golf course too; you would know that better than I.
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:42 PM   #57
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Okay...let's say that yesterday's bowlers and pool players are now out on the golf course. What do you suppose the ex-horseplayers are doing now? Aren't all the other gambling alternatives WAY more inconvenient than horseracing? In what other legal gambling endeavor can you participate fully while still in the comfort of your own home...in your pajamas?

I can see why horseracing isn't attracting any uninitiated new players...but the game is losing its existing, dedicated fan base, and it isn't just that the hardcore horseplayers are dying off. Are the ex-horseplayers out on the golf course too; you would know that better than I.
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...-is-very-real/

Go to the "Numbers are, Frankly, Staggering" section, and you'll gain good insight into the demographics of the fan base, which helps answer your question, in part.
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:44 PM   #58
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Lots of good posts. I welcome all criticism of my ideas, but I wish that people would offer solutions in addition to criticism.

AskinHaskin calls my ideas absurd. Maybe they are, but so was the idea of self-driving cars or even Elon Musk's electric Tesla. Revolutionary ideas often seem absurd at first. Maybe my ideas won't work and maybe they're impractical. One thing we know for sure, the way things are currently being done now is not working and none of the critics are thinking outside the box and sharing good solutions. But then, if you have a secure job in the racing industry and are collecting a paycheck why rock the boat? Just survive long enough to retire and collect social security. Disruption is bad for the status quo.
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:48 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by AskinHaskin View Post
While owners have benefited from those decisions, it is more a function of racing having given the customers what they've wanted over the past 35 years which has racing circling the toilet in 2019.

That trend began in earnest with the late 1980's and it was soon exacerbated by turning on the signals to multiple simulcast tracks with more and more OTB's scattered around, all of which served to harm the big picture in the interest of seeming to make it somehow better for the individual at the time.

Horse racing lost a generation of young, new fans in ways which parallel China having lost a generation of daughters, but at least China has shown the common sense to begin to repair what it has done to itself while horse racing and nearly all of you are too clueless to recognize what you've been doing to yourselves for decades.

Common sense is a prerequisite for turning around this complete mess you have thrust upon yourselves and it appears that none of you here can even understand what you have done to yourselves, and to racing by your own repetitive blunders, so clearly common sense is way beyond your pay grades.


Nobody need give a #$&* about racing surfaces, late money, takeout, or drugs in racing, as those are mere Band-aid wounds relative to all of that woes that you yourselves have brought upon racing over the past 35 years.

Common sense would recognize the impossible equation which you have created for the would-be (lol - lets use highnote's absurd suggestion: ) "young" new track visitor when he/she steps into the mutuel pools and then common sense would make the ONLY priority to bring some hope, and some balance to that person's grim outlook which was effected entirely by you.


Instead of employing common sense in reversing the lethal effects of your clueless paths, you instead ask the insane questions which parallel:

"Well what more can racing do for me ???? "

(and you decide that your position is correct just by virtue of so many other industry stakeholders asking the same wrong-sighted question)





Common sense simply doesn't mesh with the racing industry's screwed-up way of thinking.

Nice, and I agree with much of this . With the exception of the betting menu. They had to expand it. The first thing a new player asks is “what’s the jackpot bet” because that’s how this generation bets. But it’s a game that is deaf to complaining and lacks common sense in customer relations. Finally, people in the biz see the game swirling in the toilets. It practically took a shut down to see the light. There were people willing to brag about the state of the game up until this year. Besides common sense put tone deaf right up there.

And tone deaf will lead to the final flush to the septic tank. Some are going to defend it and be ostriches to the bitter end. As stakeholders and that’s the ridiculous argument in this thread. You better figure out where your “steak” comes from . Because his daughter is a cut throat CEO and she does not see enough steak coming in. That’s why he’s here bitching , she wants to sell. Wake up already, the customers are the only hope you have left.

Last edited by burnsy; 04-24-2019 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:52 PM   #60
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You think Frankie or Belinda should cater to this customer.

One owner in the audience, Gary Hartunian of Rockingham Ranch, disagreed with Frank Stronach's call for medication reform. “The horses need to be medicated,” he said. They gotta have whips.”
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