Blackjack

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by lansdale

Hi Valuist,

CVBJ is the gold standard of BJ practice software, universally admired in the BJ world, and used by many pros, including, at one time, the MIT team, if you're familiar with their exploits. Norm Wattenberger also offers a number of other very useful software products, depending on the extent of your interest in the game.

I have played both on teams and as a solo player for many years, and just to counter some of the misinformation about the game that appears in this thread (which is, after all, dedicated to horseracing), it is *by an order of magnitude*, a much easier way of making money than handicapping horses. Does that mean everyone can do it? Of course not. But for a serious, disciplined player who puts in the work, and has the requisite ability, it's very doable.

Assuming the player is able to count and make playing decision accurately, there are two reasons they haven't passed tests as team members: some couldn't screen out the distractions of the casino, some actually couldn't physically make max bets, even they knew they knew they were correct (and even though it wasn't their money). And usually these aspirants were otherwise bright, capable people. So, if you're capable of executing the first three of these (obviously the fourth doesn't apply to individual play), you should be successful.

Obviously, there's a great deal more to it than that, but if you're interested, I'd be happy to recommend some books or software tools .

Cheers,

lansdale

Hi, Lansdale,

I am an avid reader...and I would love to see your opinion on some of the blackjack books out there.

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Since you are a surveillance agent...please allow me to ask you a question:

If what Dave Schwartz said was right -- and it unquestionably is -- then why are the casinos so paranoid in their approach when dealing with card counters? So what if a tiny minority are capable of beating the game in a serious way; the vast majority of the counters who consider themselves proficient are simply not good enough in applying their supposed skill in a casino setting...and they cannot escape the ranks of the losers.

Why not just deal to the counters...and let the chips fall where they may? Just make sure that the betting spreads stay within acceptable limits, that's all. Don't you think the money that these "wannabe experts" stand to lose will more than make up for the money that the relatively few legitimate experts stand to win?

IMO...the casinos are missing the boat here. Blackjack is the most popular casino table game simply because of the notion that the game can be BEATEN...and the casinos are doing everything in their power to falsify that notion. THEY SHOULD BE FOSTERING IT INSTEAD! They don't need an edge against every single player out there in order to secure a healthy overall profit for themselves.

Can you imagine what would happen if the word suddenly came out of Las Vegas that the counters were free to play the game again...as long as they didn't get too greedy with their betting spreads? Every Tom, Dick and Harry who has ever attempted to count cards would suddenly flock to the casino while the liberal rules were still in effect...and the popularity of blackjack would skyrocket...along with the casino profits. Players are seldom as good as they think they are...and the money lost by the losers will always greatly outnumber the money won by the few legitimate experts. This law is so universal in its effect that it can practically be considered to be a law of nature.

There is no better advertisement for a gambling game than the belief that it can be BEATEN. If you are the casino, and you know the first thing about human nature...then you FOSTER that belief. You don't do everything in your power to falsify it.

Hi thaskolos,

Even though I know you are more a poker than a blackjack players, you hit the bullseye here, as usual. Casino paranoia re the threat of pros players and teams to their bottom line is ludicrous. There are too few such players to be capable of denting the bottom line event slightly. This self-defeating stupidity is a staple conversational subject of pro players.

Cheers,

lansdale

[Robert Goren]

I think the banning of card counters increases the number of the number of people who think they can beat the game. They think they can fool the casino.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I'd like to believe you...but what you say here contradicts a direct experience of mine.

I was playing blackjack in Las Vegas 3 weeks ago...and a card counter seated right next to me was barred from playing even though he happened to be losing heavily at the time.

The conversation went something like this:

SUITS - "Sir...your game is a little too tough for us, and we cannot allow you to play blackjack here any longer. But please feel free to continue playing any of our other games."

COUNTER - "But I am losing about $2,500."

SUITS - "We know that, sir. And we'd like to keep it."

First, my immediate question (if I were in your shoes) would be, "Is what is happening really what I think is happening?" It would not be the first (or only) time a shill has been "barred." Specifically, is the counter in question of your acquaintance, and do you know for a fact that he was down for the series (rather than just the session)?

Second, given the number of blackjack tables in Las Vegas, it does not seem cause for concern. There may have been other factors involved (those darn ubiquitous confounding variables) than you were aware of that precipitated the response. Sneering at a pit boss who is in a bad mood, for example, is a quick way to get "barred as a counter." Or doing something that offends or upsets a high roller that the casino wants pampered and cajoled into paying the electric bill.

In casinos--just as in horse racing--things are not always as they seem superficially to be.

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by Valuist

I am familiar with the MIT team. I believe the Russian guy from the early 90s team helped design the CV software.

Definitely agree with your assertions. Not everybody can beat it, but I'd have to think a higher percentage could beat blackjack than the racetrack.

Both Semyon Dukach of the MIT team and pro player/software developer Norm Wattenberger are brilliant guys, but Dukach had no role in the creation of CVBJ or any of the qfit software. In fact, the MIT guys created their own sim and training software, which certainly worked well enough for their purposes, initially. But after CVBJ came out, Dukach and the team manager found it better than their software, and made the switch to CVBJ.

BTW, if you've seen the movie '21' which is supposedly based on the MIT teams activities, I'm hoping you know that it's pretty far from reality. Constant winning and coke-fueled partying with strippers happens, but most of the time the game is a hard, disciplined, grind.

Cheers,

lansdale

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Hi, Lansdale,

I am an avid reader...and I would love to see your opinion on some of the blackjack books out there.

Hi thask,

Not sure what you're looking for, there are a number of good and bad books out there, but the two I'd recommend to anyone as basic, both of which are considered as bibles by pro players are 'Professional Blackjack', by Stanford Wong, and 'Blackjack Attack:3rd Edition', by Don Schlesinger. Those unfamiliar with BJ might start with the first book, and then move on to the second, which is more technical, and for more experienced players. Neither is new, but then understanding of the game is pretty close to complete at this point. The real developments of the last decade or so have been in software, much of which have come from Norm Wattenberger, e.g. 'Casino Verite', with which we began this thread.

If you want to mention some titles, I'd be happy to comment on those that I know.



Cheers,

lansdale

[wiffleball whizz]

If they are burying 70-100 cards counting means Zero.....70 of the 100 cards can be faces......true story

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Certainly Black Jack is not my game. I still do not perfectly know basic strategy, setting aside its modifications based in the running count. Unfortunately I have blown a lot of $ betting BJ in the past. I have not played a single hand for at least seven years, so I admit I know little about the game.

I have never used CVBJ, but during the years I have written several BJ simulators since I am reluctant to accept what is written in the related books at face value..

Some of the books I have read about are Thorp's Beat the dealer, Revere's Playing BJ as a business (both outdated today), Blackjack Black Belt, KO, and the Theory Of Blackjack. I think KO and Black Belt looks are the most up to date although I found the theory of BJ very interesting besides the fact that is only about one decked games...

Again, just by reading books, I am under the impression, that without shuffle tracking (which I think is as loosely defined as the body language of the thoroughbred) you can not expect too much from today's game.

DL,

I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty of any professional gambling, but the situation is somewhat better than what you represent. You are correct about the out-of-date books, and Griffin's book, although the foremost exposition of the mathematics of the game is irrelevant for actual play. However, one of the co-authors of KO, Olaf Vancura, who taught at Harvard, was FOF and has certainly used it to make decent money, and I know at least a couple of pros how use it to make their living.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, although rules and conditions in the U.S. are worse than in the past, and most games are unplayable for serious players, profitable games and occasional conditions still exist. Since you've mentioned you're not a U.S. national, I should add that most of the best games now are outside the U.S. (and also Europe, a BJ dead zone), so it's possible you're in the vicinity of much better games than I am at this moment.

BTW, why are you surprised that you blew money on BJ if you didn't even know basic strategy, much less how to count? I guarantee that, given your math background, if you concentrated on this game, you would do well.

I usually advise most people interested in counting not to see the movie '21', since it's so highly glamorized, but in your case, I would advise you to see it for motivation.

Cheers,

lansdale

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by lansdale

Hi thask,

Not sure what you're looking for, there are a number of good and bad books out there, but the two I'd recommend to anyone as basic, both of which are considered as bibles by pro players are 'Professional Blackjack', by Stanford Wong, and 'Blackjack Attack:3rd Edition', by Don Schlesinger. Those unfamiliar with BJ might start with the first book, and then move on to the second, which is more technical, and for more experienced players. Neither is new, but then understanding of the game is pretty close to complete at this point. The real developments of the last decade or so have been in software, much of which have come from Norm Wattenberger, e.g. 'Casino Verite', with which we began this thread.

If you want to mention some titles, I'd be happy to comment on those that I know.



Cheers,

lansdale

Hi Lansdale,

I don't play much blackjack, but I have a mania for gambling in general...and I have a vast gambling library at home. I have read the "bibles" of blackjack from the likes of Wong, Uston, Thorp, Revere, Humble...etc.

I am most interested in your opinion on the newer authors who seem to be making the most extravagant claims about the effectiveness or the simplicity of their systems. Books like:

KNOCK-OUT BLACKJACK...by Olaf Vancura
BLACKJACK FOR BLOOD...by Bryce Carlson

and even:

BURNING THE TABLES IN LAS VEGAS...by Ian Anderson

Are these authors legitimate, well-respected players within the blackjack community...or are their exploits largely exaggerated?

[Magister Ludi]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

KNOCK-OUT BLACKJACK...by Olaf Vancura

I would highly recommend this count system above all others. For power and simplicity, you can't beat it. I used to play several high betting correlation (bc) count systems - Thorp Ultimate (whew), Uston APC, Wong Halves, and KO. Uston APC and KO have the same betting correlation (bc) (.977). Thorp Ultimate and Wong halves have higher bc's (1.00 and .992 respectively), but are far more difficult to learn.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by wiffleball whizz

Horses 4 courses a little off topic here but we just bid for shifts for the new poker room at Maryland live casino.....there were 5 dealers that came with the director from Florida they had 1-5 in seniority I was #6 basically had my choice of days off and shifts......I chose 10am sat and sun off.....that's priceless in the casino industry.....pretty sweet right?

You're right, wiff.
Saturdays thru Mondays are the most sought after days off in our business.
The upstairs accounting, marketing people, nearly always have Sat/Sun.
If you're on the floor, or even indirectly involved with the casino, you can forget about Saturdays off.
You usually have to have a little pull to get any days Sat-Mon.
Looks like you landed on your feet there......

[Valuist]

Originally Posted by lansdale

BTW, if you've seen the movie '21' which is supposedly based on the MIT teams activities, I'm hoping you know that it's pretty far from reality. Constant winning and coke-fueled partying with strippers happens, but most of the time the game is a hard, disciplined, grind.

Cheers,

lansdale

Absolutely. Typical Hollywood; altering reality. This clip sums up some of the falsities in the movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8di2N1MDBc

Are you familiar with the book "Blackjack Blueprint"?

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by lansdale

horses,

Tahoe has offered nothing but worthless games for the serious or pro BJ player in the last twenty years, so your 'Maytag' reference is probably the most relevant. So who are these 'advantage players' you're backing off? Quarter players who got lucky? Surprised, spluttering civilians who get backed off as 'professional counters' by paranoid and ill-trained surveillance personnel are an endless source of amusement to real pro players.

Cheers,

lansdale

We're definitely not as busy as we used to be, for a variety of reasons.

[wiffleball whizz]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

You're right, wiff.
Saturdays thru Mondays are the most sought after days off in our business.
The upstairs accounting, marketing people, nearly always have Sat/Sun.
If you're on the floor, or even indirectly involved with the casino, you can forget about Saturdays off.
You usually have to have a little pull to get any days Sat-Mon.
Looks like you landed on your feet there......

Yeah I caught a break I guess......when I worked in Connecticut my days off were thur and fri.....90 percent of the time I made more on Monday or tue then I did on sat night.......and the way I look at it if I ever wanna work a Saturday they would be lined around the corner to have a Saturday off

People telling me I was stupid for having off Saturday's.....what morons they are non stop stiffs on weekends and there are important Saturdays

College football 15 Saturdays a year
Triple crown races
Weddings
Anybody else I meet will prob have off sat Sundays

Sunday's nfl obviously
Final rounds of majors

And working at 10am I got every night to myself.....it's priceless.....

[lansdale]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Hi Lansdale,

I don't play much blackjack, but I have a mania for gambling in general...and I have a vast gambling library at home. I have read the "bibles" of blackjack from the likes of Wong, Uston, Thorp, Revere, Humble...etc.

I am most interested in your opinion on the newer authors who seem to be making the most extravagant claims about the effectiveness or the simplicity of their systems. Books like:

KNOCK-OUT BLACKJACK...by Olaf Vancura
BLACKJACK FOR BLOOD...by Bryce Carlson

and even:

BURNING THE TABLES IN LAS VEGAS...by Ian Anderson

Are these authors legitimate, well-respected players within the blackjack community...or are their exploits largely exaggerated?

Hi Thask,

Of the books you listed first, I call Wong's a bible, not only because it's an excellent book, because it remains a reference point for pro players, and his Hi-Lo remains the count system of choice for most of them. The work of the others, although historically important, is outdated in the context of today's game.

'Blackjack for Blood' is certainly an excellent book, and Bryce's Omega-II, an excellent count, but as Magister Ludi rightly says in this thread, level-two counts like the Omega-II (and Humble's High-Opt II) are really unnecessary and overrated in relation to the effort they require.

Although Bryce has some great stories about his career as a high stakes player, the book came out, I believe, in the early '90s, when conditions were considerably better than now, so the quality of games and casino conditions he describes are no longer accurate. However, Bryce is a charming guy as well as a talented player (a characteristic of many high-stakes pros) and his personality is infectious enough to make this a very entertaining read.

'Burning the Tables...', although now a decade old, provides what is still a very accurate picture of what it takes to win as a high-stakes blackjack pro. For those who aspire to this level of play, or those who are already there, but could use some advice on casino comportment, and how to maintain longevity via cheap cover play and psychological ploys, Andersen is the ultimate guru. To get an idea of what Andersen is like, which suggests much of what he recommends, imagine someone with the schmoozing skills of Bill Clinton combined with superior blackjack skill.

BTW, both of these authors are well-vetted pros, although I'm not sure how active Carlson has been for the past five or six years. Andersen has been a well-known figure on the pro scene for nearly four decades, and as further prove of his cred, the introduction to 'Burning' was written by Stanford Wong.

Cheers,

lansdale