Religious

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Actor

You really don't like reality, do you?

"Leave the fools to their fantasies,
And offer them no counsel,
They couldn't stand the world as it is,
So they created one, more to their liking."

-- translated lyrics to famous Greek song.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Furthermore, I recall telling you once upon a time to Google or Bing (whatever you do with your searches) the phrase "Lapis Tiburtinus" which is an ancient inscription on a tombstone which records an unknown governor who apparently served as pro praetor of Syria twice.

The notion that Quirinius was governor of Syria twice has been debunked. The "Lapis Tiburtinus" doesn't really say anything.

Never mind Google or Bing. I'll save you some time. Here's a link.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/r...tml#Tiburtinus

The Lapis Tiburtinus

Some have tried to appeal to a headless (and thus nameless) inscription as proving that Quirinius held the governorship of Syria twice, but the inscription neither says that, nor can it belong to Quirinius. The inscription in question is a fragment of a funeral stone discovered in Tivoli (near Rome) in 1764, and is now displayed (complete with an inventive reconstruction of the missing parts) in the Vatican Museum.[5.1] We know only that it was set up after the death of Augustus in 14 A.D., since it refers to him as "divine." The actual content of the inscription is as follows:

The most obvious problem with this piece of "evidence" is that it doesn't even mention Quirinius! No one knows who this is. Numerous possible candidates have been proposed and debated, but the notion that it could be Quirinius was only supported by the wishful thinking of a few 18th and 19th century scholars (esp. Sanclemente, Mommsen, and Ramsay). But it is unlikely to be his. We know of no second defeat of a king in the career of Quirinius, though Tacitus writes his obituary in Annals 3.48, where surely such a double honor would have been mentioned, especially since a "victory celebration" was a big deal--involving several festal days of public thanksgiving at the command of the emperor. We also have no evidence that Quirinius governed Asia. Though that isn't improbable, we do know of another man, Lucius Calpurnius Piso, who did govern Asia and who defeated the kings of Thrace twice, and received at least one "victory celebration" for doing so, as well as the Triumphal Decoration, and who may also have governed Syria.[5.2] Though it cannot be proved that this is Piso's epitaph, it is clear that it would sooner belong to him than Quirinius. Thus, to ignore him and choose Quirinius would go against probability. Yet even if we lacked such a candidate as Piso, to declare this an epitaph of Quirinius is still pure speculation.

Even more importantly, this inscription does not really say that the governorship of Syria was held twice, only that a second legateship was held, and that the second post happened to be in Syria.[5.3] From what remains of the stone, it seems fairly obvious that the first post was the proconsulate of Asia. This means that even if this is the career of Quirinius, all it proves is that he was once the governor of Syria.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by TJDave

The only thing we know for certain is that Jews have been telling the same story for app. 2,300 years. There is no proof whatsoever of the Patriarchs, of Genesis. None that Jews were enslaved in Egypt or of Moses or the Exodus.

In my opinion, historical accounts are not the point, but rather often attempts to illustrate important timeless truths allegorically.

The mythologist Joseph Campbell sees myth as metaphors or symbols of the unknown. This "unknown" is located in two places: in the spiritual realm and in the depths of the human psyche. Campbell reasons that even though the divine, or "God," or whatever you call it (him/her?) is ultimately unknowable by human thought, men still try to create images of the Godhead. These images and stories may vary from culture to culture, but they remain valid as metaphors which express our experience of something beyond the human. Remarkably, many of themes and motifs in myths reappear in stories told by widely scattered peoples, which for Campbell means that many of them must be inherent in the human psyche. Thus, myths can also tell us truths about our own psychology.

Transformation IMHO is most notably the most important concept. However due to the vast historical "game" of telephone, the original allegorical meanings get swept away confusing the so-called literal historical truth, that eventually reaches the final players (players today) of the game, with the much more significant ALLEGORICAL TRUTH.

For instance exodus signifies the spiritual travels of a people, and more importantly an individual, from the state of Egypt (in Hebrew "Mitzrayim", meaning "Limitations") to the promised land. I know some Hasidim, and in Kabbalah and for Hasidism, leaving Egypt becomes a daily spiritual exodus, however the essence of this philosophical allegory applies to all major religious teachings.

Are religions only fables or myths which were simply devised to allow primitive tribal man an "easy way out" regarding life and death and societal rules? I don't think so. Yes not all of religious teachings are rational, much is nonsense, but some can be understood across differing traditions. Common transcendent concepts frequently repeat and are strong and very similar. The problem of course is discriminating what are these larger transcendent concepts are, and separating them from the hypocritical minutia and silly details.

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.
Joseph Campbell

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...u7gsDlbMlT7.99

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Why? 66 books written by about 40 different people attest to the truth -- without any contradictions.

How do you know there are no contradictions? There are 31,103 verses in the Bible. To compare each to all the others would require 483,713,856 comparisons. If you could make one comparison per minute (most would take longer) and assuming you work a 40 hour week it would take 4000 years to complete the task. It amounts to reading the Bible 15,552 times. Have you done that?

The idea that there are no contradictions in the Bible is false. None of your arguments to the contrary make any sense. Christians say this all the time, "there are no contradictions," over and over. Probably with the idea that if they say it over and over enough times someone besides themselves will believe it. Or maybe they need to say it over and over to convince themselves that they believe it.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Today, we can barely find two people to agree on the time of day, let alone on thousands of different statements that all point to one underlying, cohesive theme.

The only "underlying, cohesive theme" in the Bible is "God's a bad ass and you had better love him or he will kill you."

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

The notion that Quirinius was governor of Syria twice has been debunked. The "Lapis Tiburtinus" doesn't really say anything.

Never mind Google or Bing. I'll save you some time. Here's a link.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/r...tml#Tiburtinus

But the ancient does refer to someone who was governor twice. If it were Qx, that would solve the problem. If it isn't Qx, you still have a problem because you're arguing from silence. You think we have uncovered all the records of antiquity?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

How do you know there are no contradictions? There are 31,103 verses in the Bible. To compare each to all the others would require 483,713,856 comparisons. If you could make one comparison per minute (most would take longer) and assuming you work a 40 hour week it would take 4000 years to complete the task. It amounts to reading the Bible 15,552 times. Have you done that?

The idea that there are no contradictions in the Bible is false. None of your arguments to the contrary make any sense. Christians say this all the time, "there are no contradictions," over and over. Probably with the idea that if they say it over and over enough times someone besides themselves will believe it. Or maybe they need to say it over and over to convince themselves that they believe it.

I know there aren't any for several reasons -- one of them is that not one of you skeptics have been able to come up with one.

Methinks it is you skeptics who are constantly coming up with invented contradictions to convince yourselves. Look at Thask and the two thieves who where crucified with Christ. Like you, he argues from silence but swears there is a contradiction because he wants to believe so badly that it is one, even though I have challenged him often to demonstrate with the Law of Noncontradiction where the contradiction lies. Maybe you wanna help him out?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But the ancient does refer to someone who was governor twice. If it were Qx, that would solve the problem. If it isn't Qx, you still have a problem because you're arguing from silence. You think we have uncovered all the records of antiquity?

Boxcar, I don't remember if I asked you this before: Do you believe that God created man to look exactly as he does today from the very beginning...or was the newly created man more of an "ape-man"...whose bodily features evolved over time?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

You really don't like reality, do you?

Anyone who appeals to an argument from silence is the one who rejects reality.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Boxcar, I don't remember if I asked you this before: Do you believe that God created man to look exactly as he does today from the very beginning...or was the newly created man more of an "ape-man"...whose bodily features evolved over time?

The bible doesn't contain a description or portrait of Adam. Now you want me to give you an opinion based on silence?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The bible doesn't contain a description or portrait of Adam. Now you want me to give you an opinion based on silence?

Yes.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But the ancient ...

Ancient what? Or ancient who? Are you using the word "ancient" as an adjective or as a noun?

Originally Posted by boxcar

... does refer to someone who was governor twice.

No it does not. Go back and read my post in its entirety. (You obviously have not done that.)

Originally Posted by boxcar

If it were Qx, that would solve the problem.

If it were Lucius Calpurnius Piso that would also solve the problem, and LCP fits better than Qx.

[Actor]

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Anyone who appeals to an argument from silence is the one who rejects reality.

Define "argument from silence." Don't google it. Don't look it up. Tell me in your own words what you think it means.

[YT="You keep using that word"]G2y8Sx4B2Sk[/YT]

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes.

Why? For what purpose?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Define "argument from silence." Don't google it. Don't look it up. Tell me in your own words what you think it means.

Why not look it up? You, who pride yourself on your knowledge of fallacies, are not familiar with this one?

An argument from silence is an informal fallacy that occurs when someone interprets someone's or something's silence as anything other than silence, typically claiming that the silence was in fact communicating agreement or disagreement.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

In this case, the "something" is history. Since history is silent on who explicitly was the governor during the period in question, then you're assuming it isn't Qx. You think history's silence is communicating agreement with you that it wasn't Qx. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[YT="You keep using that word"]G2y8Sx4B2Sk[/YT][/QUOTE]