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Old 03-20-2015, 01:17 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by mostpost
I think Krugman would understand what I am saying.
Krugman is dense, but not even he is that dense.
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Old 03-20-2015, 01:23 AM   #107
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It's settled science. If wages go up this year, and employment is higher next year, then obviously the increase in wages caused the increase in employment.

And if car prices go up this year, and car sales go up next year, obviously the price increase caused the sales increase. Wait until Toyota figures this one out.
False equivalency. Wages are money coming in. Your problem is you think of every thing from viewpoint of the business owner. Car prices are money going out.

If wages go up, it means the consumer has more money to purchase a car. If car prices go up it means the consumer will need more money to purchase a car. Wages go up, car sales go up. Car prices go up, car sales go down.
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Old 03-20-2015, 01:35 AM   #108
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You have to look at it from the viewpoint of the business owner, because the business owner is the one that buys labor.

Cars and labor are commodities to those that purchase them. Wages are the price of labor. MSRPs are the price of cars. You said that as wages (the price of labor) went up, the consumption of labor increased. If it works for labor, it works for cars.
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Old 03-20-2015, 01:35 AM   #109
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If I were to read something on Basic Economics it would certainly not be anything by Thomas Sowell.

In any case, you completely misunderstood my question to Davew. Davew quoted my post comparing the % of increase in the minimum wage with the corresponding % of increase in the CPI. Then he asked me to correlate that to the population of those age groups for those years in the US? Why? What age groups? That particular post had nothing to do with age groups. It was a simple comparison of two things-Increases in the minimum wage compared to increases in the CPI.

It was designed to disprove the assertion that an increase in the minimum wage caused a corresponding or greater increase in the CPI. Clearly that is not the case.
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Old 03-20-2015, 03:00 AM   #110
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If I were to read something on Basic Economics it would certainly not be anything by Thomas Sowell.
It is obvious that you never have read anything on basic economics, so I guess there is no point starting now.

And given that Thomas Sowell is one of the greatest minds of our time, I can well understand your intimidation in taking on any of his works.
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Old 03-20-2015, 03:33 AM   #111
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the one thing I have never understood is if these people are sooo good why don't they pool their money and start their own business?
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Old 03-20-2015, 08:54 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Clocker
It is obvious that you never have read anything on basic economics, so I guess there is no point starting now.

And given that Thomas Sowell is one of the greatest minds of our time, I can well understand your intimidation in taking on any of his works.
I feel that this is also helpful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_wages
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Old 03-20-2015, 09:17 AM   #113
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I don't understand. What does my post that you quoted have to do with the question you asked? My post is about a comparison between the minimum wage and the Consumer Price Index. You're asking a question about age groups. Age groups have nothing to do with that post.

classic Democratic Deflection - say you are going to answer something

OK, let's play by your rules. We will concentrate on teenagers since you claim that teenagers are most negatively affected by an increase in the minimum wage. And BLS has statistics on teenage (Age 16-19) employment going back to 1948.

A brief explanation of my methodology.
1. I googled "Historic increases in minimum wage.
2. I printed out the table which I found.
3. I went to BLS.gov and found table A-1; "Employment Situation by age and Sex"
4. I selected "16-19 year olds and selected "Historic tables"
5. I compared the number of 16-19 year old's employed in the month immediately following the imposition of a minimum wage increase with the number employed one year later. This is what I found.

Since 1950 there have been 21 increases in the minimum wage which did not coincide with a recession. 16 times the number of 16-19 year old jobs has increased. The average yearly increase-even after deducting the negative years is 144,761.

Clearly it can be shown that an increase in the minimum wage is accompanied by job growth in the teenage demographic.



And then spew stuff about something altogether different...


say, if $15 is so good, why not just make it $60 - a buck a minute, easy to calculate...

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Old 03-20-2015, 12:26 PM   #114
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Bad Idea!! Look at this from the point of view of the customer. I'm on my way home from work and decide to get some fast food. I decide that I will go to your McDonalds, go through the drive thru and get a Big Mac, fries and a Coke. But, according to your post above, you have no drive thru. Wendy's has a drive thru and there is a Wendy's two blocks up the road. So I go there and you lose the business. Besides Wendy's has better hamburgers.

But let's say that I really love McDonald's and I decide to stop and go inside.
When I get inside there is no one there to help me, just a machine. And I, like a lot of people, are technologically challenged. So it takes me longer to place my order than if I were to give it to a human and maybe I get it wrong. Then I find that you don't take cash and I have to pay with a credit card. But I do not want to use my credit card for a small ticket item like a Big Mac so I leave and you lose the business. Anyway Wendy's has better hamburgers.

I think you are wildly optimistic if you think this idea will sweep the country in six months.


I have no dog in this as I always to to a white table cloth restaurant. If you can wait on your self then you have a problem. But what happens if they all do this. Remember, the first job in business is to secure a profit.

If this is such a bad idea you could capitalize on it and start your own restaurant paying $15 an hour and quit telling others how to spend their money
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Old 03-20-2015, 12:35 PM   #115
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Old 03-20-2015, 03:41 PM   #116
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mostpost,

I agree with you to some extent.

Raising the minimum wage DOES transfer "some" income into the hands of "some" workers which gives them more purchasing power that they can then spend on products and services.

The problem is that's not 1 for 1 to the impacted companies.

If your theory was correct, we could simply make the minimum wage $100 an hour and eliminate poverty for everyone forever. Even you would probably admit that won't work.

Ask yourself why.

It might work something like this.

You raise the minimum wage. It costs some SPECIFIC companies that hire minimum wage workers 10K off their bottom line. It costs others nothing. That 10k gets spent back, but it's spent throughout the economy. It helps many companies a little bit. It doesn't help the impacted companies 10k worth. A little bit of extra profit to a lot of companies doesn't lead to as much hiring as a 10k loss to some specific companies. The former make a few extra dollars on a narrow margin. The latter have to close shop. So the net is that some jobs and some of that income evaporates.

Some minimum wage workers are better off.

Some companies are very slightly better off.

Some minimum wage companies and workers are totally screwed.

The net is a negative because some income and jobs evaporate.

It's a highly complex subject. It's very difficult to control for all the variables in employment so you can isolate just the impact of minimum wage and prove it. That's why people are frowning upon your data. But if you look at what real businesses do in response, you'll see the flaw in your thinking.
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Old 03-20-2015, 04:12 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper
Raising the minimum wage DOES transfer "some" income into the hands of "some" workers which gives them more purchasing power that they can then spend on products and services.
Which immediately brings up the question: where does that money come from?

The favorite lib answers are:

1. the employer was making excess profits and can afford to share them with his employees; and

2. the "additional" money now in the economy will increase demand and thus increase sales for that employer.

Anyone that has been in any management position in business knows that both those answers are totally unrealistic. Anyone that has run a small business knows that they are insane.
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:38 PM   #118
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mostpost,

I agree with you to some extent.

Raising the minimum wage DOES transfer "some" income into the hands of "some" workers which gives them more purchasing power that they can then spend on products and services.

The problem is that's not 1 for 1 to the impacted companies.

If your theory was correct, we could simply make the minimum wage $100 an hour and eliminate poverty for everyone forever. Even you would probably admit that won't work.

Ask yourself why.

It might work something like this.

You raise the minimum wage. It costs some SPECIFIC companies that hire minimum wage workers 10K off their bottom line. It costs others nothing. That 10k gets spent back, but it's spent throughout the economy. It helps many companies a little bit. It doesn't help the impacted companies 10k worth. A little bit of extra profit to a lot of companies doesn't lead to as much hiring as a 10k loss to some specific companies. The former make a few extra dollars on a narrow margin. The latter have to close shop. So the net is that some jobs and some of that income evaporates.

Some minimum wage workers are better off.

Some companies are very slightly better off.

Some minimum wage companies and workers are totally screwed.

The net is a negative because some income and jobs evaporate.

It's a highly complex subject. It's very difficult to control for all the variables in employment so you can isolate just the impact of minimum wage and prove it. That's why people are frowning upon your data. But if you look at what real businesses do in response, you'll see the flaw in your thinking.
On Jan. 1, 2016 the minimum wage in Seattle will go up fifty cents an hour. That means that any full time worker earning minimum wage will have $1040 more in his pocket at the end of the year. How can that not result in more money being spent. The people involved here are not going to put that money in the bank. They are going to buy things for their family that they were unable to buy previously; necessary things.

Raising the minimum wage to $15 (over a period of time) is good. Raising it to $100 is obviously not good. Your claim that anyone thinks it is a good idea is foolish-or dishonest. But, because you should not raise the minimum to $110 an hour, is not a reason to forego raising it to $15 an hour.
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:44 PM   #119
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On Jan. 1, 2016 the minimum wage in Seattle will go up fifty cents an hour. That means that any full time worker earning minimum wage will have $1040 more in his pocket at the end of the year.
He will if he still has a job.

Whose pocket does that money come out of?
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:50 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper
Raising the minimum wage DOES transfer "some" income into the hands of "some" workers which gives them more purchasing power that they can then spend on products and services.

The problem is that's not 1 for 1 to the impacted companies.
I don't know what the ratio is for your so-called-impacted companies and it doesn't really matter. I am looking at this from the standpoint of society as a whole. Perhaps some companies will fail. They will fail because they were not managed in a way to sustain them. Their employees will lose their jobs but they will be picked up by the well managed companies.

The question is, "Overall does the money gained by raising the minimum wage exceed or at least equal the rise in the cost of living. If you look at my #93, you will see that it does by a wide margin.
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