Religious

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I was talking in terms of man's moral-spiritual condition. But then I can understand how you would have missed my meaning since you can't possibly think you are moral being, as you have no understanding of what good and evil is.

So the invention of the printing press, which motivated the translation of the Bible into English and other languages, and the spread of literacy, which allowed more people to read it, did not change things at all?

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You are obviously a highly educated man...so you must know the manner in which Bruno died...and the torture that he endured before his ultimate demise. We see what you think of Bruno, and his scientific credentials. What have you to say about the Church which put him to death?

Evening, Thask.
And Hank if you're reading, you had a similar post.

When a self-described, intelligent atheist agrees with what I've read elsewhere, I tend to agree about Bruno. He entered the Dominicans under false pretenses, denying Christ's divinity, etc., etc., but keeping everything under his hat--a very strange cat.

I think it was wrong to submit Bruno to that fate, though not sure about "torture". It took 7 years to evaluate his case. The dangerous thing for the church in any age is to allow the culture to influence her members, rather than vice versa. The church was too close to the state in the context of the times.

Hopefully there is a similar level of outrage at the champions of the French Revolution, flying the flag of "Reason" (Reign of Terror) and introducing the guillotine to clerics and Catholic peasants, et.al., the gulags, and this guy...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=290513

I hope I'm like you, Thask, in that I'm not going to let anyone else decide for me what's true--not even episcopal malfeasance in the past or present. I simply find what the Catholic Church proposes as truth compelling, like scores of intelligent and sincere individuals far more than me.

I'm not about the hopeless attempt of "converting" anybody over the internet. When I do participate, against my common sense, it may be to clarify a fact or present my beliefs as reasonable.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Evening, Thask.
And Hank if you're reading, you had a similar post.

When a self-described, intelligent atheist agrees with what I've read elsewhere, I tend to agree about Bruno. He entered the Dominicans under false pretenses, denying Christ's divinity, etc., etc., but keeping everything under his hat--a very strange cat.

I think it was wrong to submit Bruno to that fate, though not sure about "torture". It took 7 years to evaluate his case. The dangerous thing for the church in any age is to allow the culture to influence her members, rather than vice versa. The church was too close to the state in the context of the times.

Hopefully there is a similar level of outrage at the champions of the French Revolution, flying the flag of "Reason" (Reign of Terror) and introducing the guillotine to clerics and Catholic peasants, et.al., the gulags, and this guy...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=290513

I hope I'm like you, Thask, in that I'm not going to let anyone else decide for me what's true--not even episcopal malfeasance in the past or present. I simply find what the Catholic Church proposes as truth compelling, like scores of intelligent and sincere individuals far more than me.

I'm not about the hopeless attempt of "converting" anybody over the internet. When I do participate, against my common sense, it may be to clarify a fact or present my beliefs as reasonable.

I hear you.And let me say that I spent 10 years in Catholic schools.But for the life of me I don't see how you go from from..... "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy."But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.… TO....

Believe as I command or I will burn you alive.Without realizing that an institution whose position is..Believe as I command or I will burn you alive has no REAL connection with Jesus of Nazareth.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Hank

I hear you.And let me say that I spent 10 years in Catholic schools.But for the life of me I don't see how you go from from..... "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy."But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.… TO....

Believe as I command or I will burn you alive

Wait a minute now...he doesn't burn us "alive". He waits until we are dead.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Evening, Thask.
And Hank if you're reading, you had a similar post.

When a self-described, intelligent atheist agrees with what I've read elsewhere, I tend to agree about Bruno. He entered the Dominicans under false pretenses, denying Christ's divinity, etc., etc., but keeping everything under his hat--a very strange cat.

I think it was wrong to submit Bruno to that fate, though not sure about "torture". It took 7 years to evaluate his case. The dangerous thing for the church in any age is to allow the culture to influence her members, rather than vice versa. The church was too close to the state in the context of the times.

Hopefully there is a similar level of outrage at the champions of the French Revolution, flying the flag of "Reason" (Reign of Terror) and introducing the guillotine to clerics and Catholic peasants, et.al., the gulags, and this guy...

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=290513

I hope I'm like you, Thask, in that I'm not going to let anyone else decide for me what's true--not even episcopal malfeasance in the past or present. I simply find what the Catholic Church proposes as truth compelling, like scores of intelligent and sincere individuals far more than me.

I'm not about the hopeless attempt of "converting" anybody over the internet. When I do participate, against my common sense, it may be to clarify a fact or present my beliefs as reasonable.

Like you, I too march to my own drummer...and -- as have you -- have come to the realization that there is no real purpose to our endless debate here. We believe what we believe...and only direct experience of the most intimate kind can bring about a radical ideological change within us.

Speaking for myself...I believe that no individual religion holds a monopoly on the "Truth"...and that a pure heart can get to the "promised land" through a variety of different pathways. And I decry violence, wherever I see it...because I believe that we are all, first and foremost...CITIZENS OF THE WORLD. Compassion has no boundaries...IMO.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

So the invention of the printing press, which motivated the translation of the Bible into English and other languages, and the spread of literacy, which allowed more people to read it, did not change things at all?

The more techie we get, the more depraved the human race has become. I would say, technology has been a tremendous boost to man's depravity. Hasn't done a whole lot for man's spiritual condition. (Reminder: see my post 17344 and the David Berlinski quote therein.)

But by the same token it has aided in getting the gospel spread to all the nations.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Hank

I hear you.And let me say that I spent 10 years in Catholic schools.But for the life of me I don't see how you go from from..... "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy."But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.… TO....

Believe as I command or I will burn you alive.Without realizing that an institution whose position is..Believe as I command or I will burn you alive has no REAL connection with Jesus of Nazareth.

The call of the gospel is to repent of your sins and believe on him who paid the price for the sins of all those who come to believe in him. "For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life". The Father offers forgiveness and redemption through his Son.

But would God be very loving if he forced people to believe on him? God sends no one to hell. Unrepentant sinners freely choose that option for themselves.

C.S. Lewis wrote on hell:

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy
will be done.' All that are in hell choose it. Without that self-choice, there could be no hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock, it is opened.

How can you blame God for your choices?

Finally, Jesus taught about hell more than all the apostles combined! So there is a "real connection" PLUS. I would suggest that this demonstrates his love for sinners. True love doesn't cover up or conceal danger to which others are exposed. To the contrary: True love shouts "fire" when the packed theater is really on fire.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Like you, I too march to my own drummer...and -- as have you -- have come to the realization that there is no real purpose to our endless debate here. We believe what we believe...and only direct experience of the most intimate kind can bring about a radical ideological change within us.

Speaking for myself...I believe that no individual religion holds a monopoly on the "Truth"...and that a pure heart can get to the "promised land" through a variety of different pathways. And I decry violence, wherever I see it...because I believe that we are all, first and foremost...CITIZENS OF THE WORLD. Compassion has no boundaries...IMO.

Just like Jesus marched to his own drumbeat, too, eh? Just remember: It will be your own lust for autonomy and self-authority that will land you in a very bad place. You will be in a place loaded with untold numbers of like-minded people -- all who were looking to be their own boss in this life, also. If you stop to ponder the implications of this, you would shudder at the very thought of being in that kind of place.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The more techie we get, the more depraved the human race has become.

Define depraved.

Originally Posted by boxcar

I would say, technology has been a tremendous boost to man's depravity.

Your evidence for this?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hasn't done a whole lot for man's spiritual condition.

The big advantage of the purveyors of Christianity is that their customers will never know that they've been had. The dead cannot sue.

• There are more full bellies.
• Life expectancy up from 30 years and now nearing 80.
• I have a very good chance of making it to 95 according to current mortality tables.
• If I had been born the same day the mythical Jesus was born I would have died at age 2.
• I'm a three time cancer survivor.
• Deaths due to wars peaked during WWII and have been declining since.
• Smallpox eradicated.

Screw "spiritual condition"!

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The call of the gospel is to repent of your sins and believe on him who paid the price for the sins of all those who come to believe in him. "For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life". The Father offers forgiveness and redemption through his Son.

But would God be very loving if he forced people to believe on him? God sends no one to hell. Unrepentant sinners freely choose that option for themselves.

C.S. Lewis wrote on hell:

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy
will be done.' All that are in hell choose it. Without that self-choice, there could be no hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock, it is opened.

How can you blame God for your choices?

Finally, Jesus taught about hell more than all the apostles combined! So there is a "real connection" PLUS. I would suggest that this demonstrates his love for sinners. True love doesn't cover up or conceal danger to which others are exposed. To the contrary: True love shouts "fire" when the packed theater is really on fire.

Pay attention Boxie.We were discussing Bruno being burned alive by the "church".I was not referring to "hell" I was referring to the "church" burning people alive at the stake for holding "improper" beliefs.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Just like Jesus marched to his own drumbeat, too, eh? Just remember: It will be your own lust for autonomy and self-authority that will land you in a very bad place. You will be in a place loaded with untold numbers of like-minded people -- all who were looking to be their own boss in this life, also. If you stop to ponder the implications of this, you would shudder at the very thought of being in that kind of place.

Ok.So I guess this also means that people such as Socrates,Epictetus,and Siddhartha
are all in "hell" but You will be saved.Right?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Hank

Pay attention Boxie.We were discussing Bruno being burned alive by the "church".I was not referring to "hell" I was referring to the "church" burning people alive at the stake for holding "improper" beliefs.

Sorry about that. And just what "church" did that? Couldn't have been the RCC, right?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Define depraved.

Got a dictionary?

Your evidence for this?

Again...I refer you back to Berlinski's quote that I posted last week sometime. (The post number is my previous post to you.)

The big advantage of the purveyors of Christianity is that their customers will never know that they've been had. The dead cannot sue.

• There are more full bellies.
• Life expectancy up from 30 years and now nearing 80.
• I have a very good chance of making it to 95 according to current mortality tables.
• If I had been born the same day the mythical Jesus was born I would have died at age 2.
• I'm a three time cancer survivor.
• Deaths due to wars peaked during WWII and have been declining since.
• Smallpox eradicated.

Screw "spiritual condition"!

The big shocker to all unbelievers who have died is that they all know the Christians were right because the bible spoke the truth. There is Justice in this universe and they're finding that out!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Got a dictionary?

From which dictionary did you get your definition of morality?

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again...I refer you back to Berlinski's quote that I posted last week sometime.

Berlinski's quote is not evidence. It's opinion. I somehow doubt that many of Berlinski's opinions would agree with yours.

Want quotes? Here's one.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. -- Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted by boxcar

... the bible spoke the truth.

Would that include the part about rabbits chewing their cud?

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is Justice in this universe and they're finding that out!

How is blaming a whole species for the transgression of two of their members just? It's not! It's petty and tyrannical.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The more techie we get, the more depraved the human race has become. I would say, technology has been a tremendous boost to man's depravity. Hasn't done a whole lot for man's spiritual condition.

If you could, would you put the genie back in the bottle?