what everyone is missing

[_______]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

No conflation. It is a demonstration about complete idiots not understanding the difference. In other words you are wrong.

I've re-read this a few times. Maybe it's me. But I can't really draw your point out of it. Outside of me being wrong and all.

[_______]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Wait a minute.

You were making a good case for why these kinds of actions would never extend to people like Washington, Jefferson and other slave owners, then you went and blew it by describing the extremist left. :-)

I laughed.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by _______

I've re-read this a few times. Maybe it's me. But I can't really draw your point out of it. Outside of me being wrong and all.

It is me.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by _______

I laughed.

I'm glad. That was the intent.

In one of the threads I mentioned that I think civil war statues belong in museums, but I'm not as confident as you regarding statues of Washington, Jefferson etc... and street names & buildings being safe. There's a lot of animosity against the founders for being slave owners. There may never be a mainstream push to have them removed, but that won't stop anarchists from vandalizing & destroying them or the Washington Post from defending the vandals.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...statue-protest

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

It is me.

I meant my poorly worded response, as an example of a supposedly educated person not understanding the difference. Not understanding the difference between slave-owning founding fathers and civil war participants is not the sole province of complete idiots.

[Marshall Bennett]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

When you write stupid stuff like "Blacks are 50% of the problem," yeah, I'm gonna delete it...

Its stupid stuff if you don't agree is what you really mean. Its not stupid at all and I'd bet my life an overwhelming majority of white people in the country would agree. I was applying the blame equally between whites and blacks. Since you believe that to be "stupid" then I assume you see it as a white problem.
You may not like my opinions, but that was all it was intended to be. You're the boss however and you censor what you wish. At the end of the day it really matters jack-shit to me. I live with what rights you give me here or walk.
Frankly, I believe what you posted as a reply to mine was "stupid".
I'm sure you're right though and I'm wrong. Its always been that way.
Have a nice evening, Mike.

[_______]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I'm glad. That was the intent.

In one of the threads I mentioned that I think civil war statues belong in museums, but I'm not as confident as you regarding statues of Washington, Jefferson etc... and street names & buildings being safe. There's a lot of animosity against the founders for being slave owners. There may never be a mainstream push to have them removed, but that won't stop anarchists from vandalizing & destroying them or the Washington Post from defending the vandals.

I'm a big civil war history buff. I don't think anyone actually thinks history is being erased by the removal of statutes honoring leaders of secession from public places. Many of them were erected in the 40's and after as signals during the civil rights movement. That part of history does get regularly ignored.

I draw the line of stupidity at the point where monuments to common soldiers are controversial. The Los Angeles VA cemetery just removed a monument to the 30 confederate veterans buried there after protests. That, to me, was a sad and stupid decision.

But the hands in the air, running in circles, crying over history because someone wants to put Nathan Bedford Forrest in a war museum instead of a public square is a farce.

And no, it isn't leading to America renouncing all of it's flawed, all too human founders.

[Show Me the Wire]

Op-ed in the NY Times from 2012

The Monster of Monticello, Thomas Jefferson

Destroying families didn’t bother Jefferson, because he believed blacks lacked basic human emotions. “Their griefs are transient,” he wrote, and their love lacked “a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”

Jefferson claimed he had “never seen an elementary trait of painting or sculpture” or poetry among blacks and argued that blacks’ ability to “reason” was “much inferior” to whites’, while “in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.” He conceded that blacks were brave, but this was because of “a want of fore-thought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present.”

A scientist, Jefferson nevertheless speculated that blackness might come “from the color of the blood” and concluded that blacks were “inferior to the whites in the endowments of body and mind.”............................................ ..................

If there was “treason against the hopes of the world,” it was perpetrated by the founding generation, which failed to place the nation on the road to liberty for all. No one bore a greater responsibility for that failure than the master of Monticello.

[emphasis added]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/op...jefferson.html

Paul Finkelman, a visiting professor in legal history at Duke Law School, is a professor at Albany Law School and the author of “Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson.”

Do you think Mr. Finkelman and others of his ilk would support the removal of a Thomas Jefferson statue or a statue of any of the slave holding founding fathers? After all they committed treason against the hopes of the world. Or is he a complete idiot that can't distinguish between the founders of a country and people who fought, in the Civil War, to protect the treason Jefferson and the other founding fathers committed?

[dartman51]

Originally Posted by MONEY

Vietnam Veterans are American Heroes, NOT LOSERS.
They fought for the U.S.A. in Vietnam not against us.

You are correct, Money. And I sure hope you were treated as one. Some of us, were not.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by dartman51

You are correct, Money. And I sure hope you were treated as one. Some of us, were not.

I agree Vietnam vets are heroes.

[_______]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Op-ed in the NY Times from 2012

The Monster of Monticello, Thomas Jefferson

[emphasis added]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/op...jefferson.html

Paul Finkelman, a visiting professor in legal history at Duke Law School, is a professor at Albany Law School and the author of “Slavery and the Founders: Race and Liberty in the Age of Jefferson.”

Do you think Mr. Finkelman and others of his ilk would support the removal of a Thomas Jefferson statue or a statue of any of the slave holding founding fathers? After all they committed treason against the hopes of the world. Or is he a complete idiot that can't distinguish between the founders of a country and people who fought, in the Civil War, to protect the treason Jefferson and the other founding fathers committed?

Get back to me with an actual removal or renaming and I'll join you in lighting my hair on fire. Actually, get back to me with dozens. I'm sure there has probably been some idiot somewhere and since we are looking for a movement, I don't want to waste this beautiful hairline to make a rhetorical point.

The "op" part of op-ed refers to "opinion" in case you weren't aware. Those are protected speech and come in many colors. Kind of like your ridiculous on line petition example.

I'm in favor of the them in general though not this one specifically.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by _______

They aren't equivalent. They have never been equivilant.

Anymore than those supporting civil rights are exactly the same as neo-nazi's and white supremacists.

I find it amazing people are even attempting to make that stretch.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by _______

Get back to me with an actual removal or renaming and I'll join you in lighting my hair on fire. Actually, get back to me with dozens. I'm sure there has probably been some idiot somewhere and since we are looking for a movement, I don't want to waste this beautiful hairline to make a rhetorical point.

The "op" part of op-ed refers to "opinion" in case you weren't aware. Those are protected speech and come in many colors. Kind of like your ridiculous on line petition example.

I'm in favor of the them in general though not this one specifically.

My hair is not on fire. Point is the President is not too far off in his assessment about the slippery slope. And your

Only complete idiots would be unable to understand the differences

assertion is deeply flawed as a rebuttal to the President's statement.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by _______

I'm a big civil war history buff. I don't think anyone actually thinks history is being erased by the removal of statutes honoring leaders of secession from public places. Many of them were erected in the 40's and after as signals during the civil rights movement. That part of history does get regularly ignored.

I draw the line of stupidity at the point where monuments to common soldiers are controversial. The Los Angeles VA cemetery just removed a monument to the 30 confederate veterans buried there after protests. That, to me, was a sad and stupid decision.

But the hands in the air, running in circles, crying over history because someone wants to put Nathan Bedford Forrest in a war museum instead of a public square is a farce.

And no, it isn't leading to America renouncing all of it's flawed, all too human founders.

Why? They supported the leaders and actually fought for secession. The common soldiers are just as guilty, or more so, as the leaders.

[_______]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Why? They supported the leaders and actually fought for secession. The common soldiers are just as guilty, or more so, as the leaders.

I know this was just a troll but I'll pretend you aren't trying to make a ridiculous point about how removing statutes mostly erected in the South during the civil rights movement is exactly like pissing on George Washington's grave.

Most confederate soldiers weren't slaveholders. In fact, most weren't landholders. They were poor whites little better off than the slaves their leaders wanted to sacrifice their lives to keep. I'm sure a modern mind would find their attitudes archaic, in the same way we can look back and see flaws in Thomas Jefferson and other founders.

But, on balance, I have far more sympathy for a common soldier who fought for a cause which didn't also assure their countinied wealth on the back of slave labor.