Been looking for

[wiretowire68]

Have searched the internet high and low including the Daily Racing Form manual regarding their turn angles to the stretch. I.e. using the arc to understand the slowing down of horses that are caught wide as oppose to those who are able to stay off the angle. There is a website that is not really being used that had the dimensions of certain tracks in degrees.

I know people will ask ?????? why?? question is in CX Wongs mathematical book on horse racing, he does make reference in trip handicapping that in a horses position you can use Pie. or 3.14 with the arc on the turn to help gage velocity and ground lost.. I know that it contained Parx, Aqueduct and a couple of others but what I find surprising is that each website does not give the angle dimension of the turn.

I have worked in my ideas as I have tripped handicapped in order to put forth the amount of feet lost or lengths due to position and obviously a horse just not good enough or get caught wide. I have seen jockeys have gotten pretty smart when it comes to spreading out trying to avoid kick back and the obvious running in either first tier the second tier in the herd.

Obvious, this changes on the turn with more speed up front and more horses in a field when it comes to getting to the stretch and making the run for the money. So... just looking to experiment with "TT" in terms of feet and energy expended. So I was fooling around with 1st fraction, the fact that thoroughbreds are approximately 3-4 ft wide, a gate is approximately 3 ft. and taking into account, they try not to be squeezed at the rail early, my guess unless you are on the lead or just sitting off and then so forth and so on.. you can guestimate the amount of feet a horse is sitting of the lead in terms of from the rail to the amount of feet wide wide..i.e depending on route or sprint and size of field.. Any thoughts and please no "wasting your time" Its just an idea for again, improving or declining in terms in form etc. and ground lost or gained in order to improve or decline based on the turn, the post position and energy used.

[cj]

Probably the only way you are going to get this information is to use Google Earth and measure it yourself. It actually isn't too hard to do.

[denniswilliams]

Not sure how 'turn angles' help you here. You'd have to know where the horses are at a given point in the race. Two ways of doing this:

1)watch the race/replay (or look at photos)

2) use GPS data, which has 1/2 furlong splits and distance covered -- ASSUMING IT'S ACCURATE

[wiretowire68]

that is right, forgot that Equibase results go gps results with mph etc. Thanks..I will look at that and see if there is a way to use in my equation.

[denniswilliams]

Think of what space tracking technology has done for NBA (and other sport) analytics. If GPS data turns out to be accurate, it could mean something similar for horse racing.

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by wiretowire68

that is right, forgot that Equibase results go gps results with mph etc. Thanks..I will look at that and see if there is a way to use in my equation.

Originally Posted by denniswilliams

Think of what space tracking technology has done for NBA (and other sport) analytics. If GPS data turns out to be accurate, it could mean something similar for horse racing.

Before you get too carried away or excited about a race running factor with limited impact and value you might want to take a peek at a somewhat related thread that I started over 5 years ago titled:

“A Critique of Speed: Fallacies in Creating Accurate Speed Figures”.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...d.php?t=148582

I stand by my original beliefs and as far as I know electronic tracking of these race horses really hasn't improved very much since it was mentioned back then. I do agree that workable technology that produces reliably consistent and accurate results could answer many speed and pace related questions.

(My how time flies!).
.
.

[steveb]

Originally Posted by Nitro

Before you get too carried away or excited about a race running factor with limited impact and value you might want to take a peek at a somewhat related thread that I started over 5 years ago titled:

“A Critique of Speed: Fallacies in Creating Accurate Speed Figures”.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...d.php?t=148582

I stand by my original beliefs and as far as I know electronic tracking of these race horses really hasn't improved very much since it was mentioned back then. I do agree that workable technology that produces reliably consistent and accurate results could answer many speed and pace related questions.

(My how time flies!).
.
.

and my comment directly under your post still stands, as does the CJ one!!
hk sections are both reliable and consistent, even if the way they are calculated is not perfect.
nothing about horse racing is perfect

[cj]

Originally Posted by denniswilliams

Not sure how 'turn angles' help you here. You'd have to know where the horses are at a given point in the race. Two ways of doing this:

1)watch the race/replay (or look at photos)

2) use GPS data, which has 1/2 furlong splits and distance covered -- ASSUMING IT'S ACCURATE

This distance covered recently returned. I don't think it is perfect by any stretch, but hopefully it is improved from before when it disappeared. Going to check several races today.

[denniswilliams]

Originally Posted by cj

This distance covered recently returned. I don't think it is perfect by any stretch, but hopefully it is improved from before when it disappeared. Going to check several races today.

What's you experience as to the accuracy of the timing for the individual horses?

[denniswilliams]

Originally Posted by steveb

and my comment directly under your post still stands, as does the CJ one!!
hk sections are both reliable and consistent, even if the way they are calculated is not perfect.
nothing about horse racing is perfect

Is there a reason to question HK timing of races? Is any other jurisdiction in the world doing it better? Or even close?

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by denniswilliams

Is there a reason to question HK timing of races? Is any other jurisdiction in the world doing it better? Or even close?

I think the point was Nitro again trying to turn a thread into "what's the point of posting because nothing works except my secret analysis of Hong Kong toteboards" rather than criticizing how Hong Kong times its races. But that's just me because it's happened in 348 threads.

[cj]

Originally Posted by denniswilliams

What's you experience as to the accuracy of the timing for the individual horses?

It was shaky, but most of the tracks now use hybrid GPS/portable beam systems and it is better. It isn't perfect, but it is better.

[steveb]

Originally Posted by denniswilliams

Is there a reason to question HK timing of races? Is any other jurisdiction in the world doing it better? Or even close?

no, HK, unlike every other jurisdication i have done, is fine.

the individual sections though are derived from the margins at each timing point, unlike the finish times.
well at least they were the last time i checked, which admittedly was a few years back.

and because the sections are derived from margins that are in .25 increments.
thus they are not perfectly accurate, but most people would not even realise how they are calculated, and they still give valuable information.

[steveb]

just checked again and, yes, the sections are derived from the margin behind the leader at each point.
where the time value of each length is .16

[denniswilliams]

Originally Posted by steveb

just checked again and, yes, the sections are derived from the margin behind the leader at each point.
where the time value of each length is .16

I just use .16. It could be more exact but it slightly alters the published beaten lengths and creates consistent ones for the last 800m split sectionals that they added last year. Gives me a fuller view of the race.



Close finishes are the norm in HKG - especially at HV. It seems that any number of horses in a given field have run a race that could win that day. Do you think speed or pace figures actually capture what I see as very small differences between these horses? And, if they don't, is it because the data is not exact enough? What would be needed; more precise timing; exact position data? .....