Eric Garner death & Grand Jury decision

[Tom]

My understanding is:

1. The choke hold is banned by NYPD, but it is not illegal. Tell that to CNN.
2. The guy died of a heart attack later on?
3. There was a group of officers there, including a supervisor.
4. They guy was being arrested for selling Loosies to the homeless.

Mu conclusions are:

1. The cop was over-zealous and probably has some kind of macho-me complex.
2. Why the hell do we need a group of cops hassling someone selling loosies? Is the almighty tax dollar more important than a man's life?

3. NYC Mayor is the root of all evil.

[JustRalph]

First off the choke hold shouldn't have been used. Then add on......the fact that
these officers were using the same tactics on a 350 lb guy that they use on a 150 lb guy. Back in the 80's and 90's extreme resistors were hog tied on their stomachs face down all the time. When you are 350lbs your diaphragm muscles are not strong enough to lift your body to provide normal inhalation. There have been several deaths from positioning large people this way.

We learned this lesson and by the mid 90's many Police Departments were making training adjustments and forbidding the "hog tie" not sure what NYPD teaches.

In the heat of the moment without an observer to direct (Supervisor?) it's an all out tussle until compliance. For a man in the condition of this Garner guy, a Supervisor has to direct his guys to make sure they don't kill the guy. The Supervisor has to make this call from a vantage point standing back and evaluating the subject prior to and during the take down.

Believe it or not hospital security guys have this scenario down pat. You haven't learned to fight until you work in a hospital. Everybody you deal with has some sort of condition. Hospitals train for this stuff constantly. Imagine the same scenario with a guy who just came out of spinal surgery? Heart surgery? Mentally ill and paranoid. With multiple IV's and open wounds.

When I worked as hospital Security Supervisor I was often criticized for "talking too much" And waiting too long to do takedowns. I'm betting the NYPD wishes someone could have persuaded this guy to go along or issue him a citation.

[Clocker]

NYPD is now saying that the officer did not use a choke hold, he used a technique taught in the police academy called the “seat belt maneuver”. Anyone heard of this?

They say the the grand jury found that it was not a choke hold.

[Stillriledup]

I think if the GJ didn't know what this guy did for a living, its a 100% lock this doesn't get tossed out.

If this was just a regular Joe Blow choking John Doe with neither man's occupation known by the jury, you have a different result.

[pat]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]Holding the head and knee on back/neck/arms/whatever is standard procedure (someone can correct me if I am way off base on that one). It's not life threatening and it doesn't produce any permanent damage.

I did not see anyone's face being SMASHED into the pavement.

I saw a suspect who refused to comply being taken into custody.

When you refuse to comply with a police officer's lawful request/order, there is a reason you are refusing. You are also signaling instantly that you now pose a greater danger to that police officer.

Again, if you were running the show, they might still be on that corner waiting for him to cooperate.

This particular instance turned tragic for a number of reasons. Not saying it was right and not saying I agree with what happened.

But YOU used THIS INCIDENT as a platform to condemn police in general. And I responded ALSO in generalities, which you then, for some reason, took issue with.

We're pretty much on the same page when it comes to THIS particular incident. But we're miles apart in general.

That was the main point



Well said PA you hit the nail on the head ,I couldnt have said it any better myself. Spoken like a person who is "On the Job"

[johnhannibalsmith]

I couldn't agree much more with Jim nor disagree much less.

Frankly, I'm tired about hearing about all the good cops whenever we see this bullshit, which is waaaaaaay too often. I don't want to compare this to the perception of muslim terrorists, but if you want to give the "good Muslims" hell for not calling out the lunatic terrorist fringe, then give the "good cops" hell too for not stopping the lunatic terrorist fringe in every department in ever town, hamlet, city, county, and state.

It's almost to the point where you're chances are better in a random mugging than with a couple of eager beaver cops looking for an excuse, of which almost anything qualifies anymore.

[RunForTheRoses]

Originally Posted by badcompany

Even though Garner was a bum, the chokehold was out of line and the cop should've been charged with something.

Here's what I think happened. This is just an opinion from someone who knows Staten Island.

The cop is an Italian from Staten Island which is very Italian-American.

The jury was just protecting one of its own.

That's anti-Italian bigotry which is not borne out by the facts in this case, that is the racial makeup of this jury which someone else posted. Would you have said the same thing about other ethnic/racial/religious and their enclaves?

[RunForTheRoses]

Originally Posted by JustRalph

First off the choke hold shouldn't have been used. Then add on......the fact that
these officers were using the same tactics on a 350 lb guy that they use on a 150 lb guy. Back in the 80's and 90's extreme resistors were hog tied on their stomachs face down all the time. When you are 350lbs your diaphragm muscles are not strong enough to lift your body to provide normal inhalation. There have been several deaths from positioning large people this way.

We learned this lesson and by the mid 90's many Police Departments were making training adjustments and forbidding the "hog tie" not sure what NYPD teaches.

In the heat of the moment without an observer to direct (Supervisor?) it's an all out tussle until compliance. For a man in the condition of this Garner guy, a Supervisor has to direct his guys to make sure they don't kill the guy. The Supervisor has to make this call from a vantage point standing back and evaluating the subject prior to and during the take down.

Believe it or not hospital security guys have this scenario down pat. You haven't learned to fight until you work in a hospital. Everybody you deal with has some sort of condition. Hospitals train for this stuff constantly. Imagine the same scenario with a guy who just came out of spinal surgery? Heart surgery? Mentally ill and paranoid. With multiple IV's and open wounds.

When I worked as hospital Security Supervisor I was often criticized for "talking too much" And waiting too long to do takedowns. I'm betting the NYPD wishes someone could have persuaded this guy to go along or issue him a citation.

Kizzy Adoni, an African American female was Pantaleo's supervisor who was on the scene. A not very well reported fact:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2032435

[davew]

Originally Posted by Tom

My understanding is:

1. The choke hold is banned by NYPD, but it is not illegal. Tell that to CNN.
2. The guy died of a heart attack later on?
3. There was a group of officers there, including a supervisor.
4. They guy was being arrested for selling Loosies to the homeless.

Mu conclusions are:

1. The cop was over-zealous and probably has some kind of macho-me complex.
2. Why the hell do we need a group of cops hassling someone selling loosies? Is the almighty tax dollar more important than a man's life?

3. NYC Mayor is the root of all evil.

forgot that-
1. the supervisor was a black woman
2. majority of NYPD is minorities
3. police were called for this guy who was badgering store business
4. guy has been arrested 31 times before
5. guy was resisting arrest

[Robert Fischer]

The 'racial stuff' seems like silly propaganda, and it probably is.

This Garner wasn't playing by the rules, and he was of a low enough socio-economic status to be treated with physical violence rather than patience and communication. The fact that he was a giant of a man further ratcheted up the fight-or-flight situation once violence was determined to be an acceptable means.

From the video, Garner initially seems to be claiming to have broken up a fight, and there are officers standing very close to him in a confrontational manner.

Clearly, Garner and the officers both ended up in fight-or-flight mode.

For some reason, we seem to have a hard time with fight-or-flight scenarios. Whether it's simply that difficult and costly to train for, I'm not sure. It is pretty clear that human behavior changes while in fight-or-flight mode.

Ideally, you would have officers that are trained to stay calm and rational and in control of emotions, and to deal with and defuse citizens who are in fight-or-flight mode.

Ideally, when a citizen is not actively posing a significant danger, you would use patience and communication rather than brutal force and/or incapacitating weapons.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by davew

forgot that-
1. the supervisor was a black woman - I said that in an earlier post.
2. majority of NYPD is minorities - irrelevant fact.
3. police were called for this guy who was badgering store business - he was selling loosies - less of a crime than jaywalking
4. guy has been arrested 31 times before - for the same stupid offence - irrelevant
5. guy was resisting arrest - for selling looises.

He was murdered for a stupid offense, giving the homeless, who cannot pay the utterly ridiculous NYC sales tax on a pack of smokes, a few minutes of enjoyment they would not otherwise not be able to have.

If NYC has a task force that patrols the streets looking for crimes like this, then NYC can go to hell. I hope the family sues and gets a billion bucks.

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by RunForTheRoses

Kizzy Adoni, an African American female was Pantaleo's supervisor who was on the scene. A not very well reported fact:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.2032435

I just heard that tonight. Amazing she didn't take a different route. I think this was a failure of Supervision as much as anything else.

[FantasticDan]

Originally Posted by Robert Fischer

From the video, Garner initially seems to be claiming to have broken up a fight, and there are officers standing very close to him in a confrontational manner.

The man taking the video is the one claiming Garner had broken up a fight, which is not in dispute. The cops witnessed this, and immediately afterward focused their attention on Garner and his cigarette-selling.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

If this was just a regular Joe Blow choking John Doe with neither man's occupation known by the jury, you have a different result.

Of course not. The man was breaking a law, and he did not submit and obey the police officer.

While everyone is looking at black vs. white race stuff, and riding Ferguson's coat-tails, few are questioning the accepted standards of police-citizen interaction.

Police are allowed to use brutal force upon a citizen if that citizen doesn't submit and obey. There doesn't have to be any significant threat posed from the citizen, and there is also a relatively limited amount of time for the citizen to submit and obey before an escalation.

Most citizens seem to be perfectly fine with this.

[badcompany]

Originally Posted by RunForTheRoses

That's anti-Italian bigotry which is not borne out by the facts in this case, that is the racial makeup of this jury which someone else posted. Would you have said the same thing about other ethnic/racial/religious and their enclaves?

What did you say? I can't hear you, genius.

------------


Man who filmed Eric Garner in chokehold says grand jury was rigged

EXCLUSIVE: Ramsey Orta — who recorded the July 17 incident in which Officer Daniel Pantaleo put Eric Garner in a chokehold shortly before he died on his cellphone — told the Daily News the grand jury ‘wasn’t fair from the start,’ and claims his testimony only lasted 10 minutes. ‘I think they already had their minds made up,’ he said.
BY ERIK BADIA , TINA MOORE , CORKY SIEMASZKO NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Published: Thursday, December 4, 2014, 12:02 PM Updated: Friday, December 5,

Orta said he feels the Garner family was cheated and is glad the Justice Department will investigate the killing.

“The feds should pick it up,” he said. “Staten Island is too tied up. They all know each other. They won’t violate their own kind.”